cb81
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Mar 25, 2020 22:40:32 GMT -5
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Post by cb81 on Mar 25, 2020 22:40:32 GMT -5
Predictions on Allan Cup 2021...will we see interest from more teams next year? I certainly hope another team or two steps up in Saskatchewan. AAA senior hockey in Rosetown appears to be done for the time being.
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Post by southoftheborder on Mar 26, 2020 4:21:12 GMT -5
Unfortunately, this may end up being the final nail in the coffin for the Allan Cup. And if you read my past post you will see how difficult that would be for me to say.
Depending on what format they use you may not get six teams to even play at the level next season. If they give it to Dundas and Hamilton you might have all four of the ACH teams qualify along with South East Prairie Thunder and Haut-Madawaska.
If you go to an East-West Format, which region would host the final may be the deciding factor on a team trying to play. Teams are going to be struggling financially as the economy has slowed down due to the pandemic and if an Alberta team wins the west and New Brunswick wins the east good luck on getting a series under those circumstances. A single location tournament might be a better option as opposed to going to East-West for next year as it would cut down on the number of series needed.
The price of oil dropped to the point where Alberta's economy may be in ruins so I would not hold my breath on Innisfail or Stony Plain playing at Senior AAA next season due to a likely loss of sponsorship and ticket revenue. Rosetown dropping out leaves nothing west of Winnipeg at this point.
This may end up being the South East Prairie Thunder playing the Allan Cup Hockey playoff champion as those teams would seem to be the best organized teams. And at that ACH may even be down to 3 teams. That was rumour going around even prior to the current pandemic. SEPT would only have to fund raise for a trip to Hamilton if Rosetown sits out 2020-21. Alberta would be the same but with how much petroleum has gone down in price that may be a challenge.
Alberta has to declare early, so if they both opt out you might see a team from BC decide to take a run at Senior AAA especially if there isn't a BC-Alberta series for a berth in the Allan Cup as Kelowna had an issue getting committed players for a series with the Senior AA Coy Cup being played around the same time a few years back.
I am not sure what teams finances are but I could see Haut-Madawaska sitting out a year or two at senior AAA and the same with Innisfail, Stony Plain, Rosetown, and Norway House. Teams from Quebec or Eastern Ontario would likely hold out another year or two before making the jump to Senior AAA.
The only other new teams I think you might see is another New Brunswick team as Bochtouche, Cap-Pele, and Elsipogtog started a new year last year and could be candidates to make the need for a New Brunswick playoff. The three teams looked like they were evenly matched from the standings. New Brunswick had tried to have a champion from the previous season be the provincial representative but with the way this season ended you might see the need for a provincial playoff.
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Post by southoftheborder on Mar 26, 2020 4:28:27 GMT -5
If you see any new teams next year it may be an attempt by a team to try to host the 2022 Allan Cup if they don't decide to change the format to East-West by then. I think that would more so be the case with Northwestern Ontario, Eastern Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic Canada. A team would have to be at the Senior AAA level the previous season to be chosen as host of the Allan Cup tournament.
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cb81
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Mar 26, 2020 7:50:21 GMT -5
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Post by cb81 on Mar 26, 2020 7:50:21 GMT -5
Any idea if there are any AAA level teams in the northern US? Thinking of the Warroad Lakers/Islanders from a number of years ago. If so, possible to include any of these teams in inter-provincial playoffs? Or is senior hockey in the US not really a thing these days?
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Post by southoftheborder on Mar 26, 2020 14:41:16 GMT -5
Any idea if there are any AAA level teams in the northern US? Thinking of the Warroad Lakers/Islanders from a number of years ago. If so, possible to include any of these teams in inter-provincial playoffs? Or is senior hockey in the US not really a thing these days? This has been brought up before..the team would have to be a member of a Hockey Canada sanctioned league. Warroad played in several different leagues in Manitoba over the years. There are a couple of Senior hockey leagues in the US such as the Black Diamond, Mountain West, and Great Lakes Leagues. The Black Diamond League has three teams in Bozeman Montana, Jackson Wyoming and Hailey Idaho. The Mountain West has 9 teams stretching from Colorado to California. The Great Lakes League has 9 teams in Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan. Leagues above adult recreation have never really caught on down here. It's too bad as there are many players who played Division I or III varsity college or club level hockey in college not to mention plenty of players who played in the USHL and the NAHL that would likely make up some good teams if there was enough interest but with the exception of about five states (Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, and Wisconsin) senior hockey wouldn't draw flies down here. There is just too much competition with basketball and higher level hockey. Senior hockey has seemed to be a medium sized town niche thing. Many of the more successful teams over the years have been towns too small for Major Junior or Junior A teams. I've brought up before alumni teams for Major Junior, Junior A, and university teams would be a great way to get more teams involved in the Allan Cup. You need to have an operator that loves the game and doesn't mind putting in the work just to break even or even lose some money. Such as Peter Ham in Brantford, Ontario who did just about everything with the Blast for the better part of 20 years.
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Post by mlh01 on Mar 26, 2020 21:11:04 GMT -5
A lot of doom and gloom on here. Some warranted. Others not. There are essentially two threads, both dealing with the future of Senior Hockey at the AAA level and the other about the Allan Cup.
My comments and knowledge are “Pre Covid”. Thus timelines concerning the start of next season are unknown.
I will say that wade has been the biggest author of the doom and gloom since Bentley/Lacombe walked away from Senior hockey. To wade those approx 20 years are when Senior hockey started and ended. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Senior hockey ebbs and flows. It will continue even without Wade and his “”Army” as he referred to them. Currently I will admit a new structure is in dire need. Costs are exponentially too high for teams who want to go down the AAA road.
What I can divulge is from what I know there is a good possibility of new teams/centres entering the Ontario Senior hockey scene. And Wade is wrong. It’s not through leagues merging.
I also believe the Cup will simply move to 2021 and be split between Dundas and Hamilton.
Southoftheborder, I can sense your love for Senior hockey from below the 49th. But I also believe you are trumpeting the Fat Lady singing without any knowledge. All or most of your assumptions may come to fruition but your points are simply that - guesses.
In closing, there actually are more Senior hockey players that can perform at a very high level than there ever has been. There are so many lower level leagues that Senior hockey is far from dead. The big issue remains Hockey Canada. The Allan Cuo is the only Canadian Championshio that doesn’t have a name sponsor - ie the Esso Cup. The solutions are right in front of them. The talent is right in front of them. Hockey Canada needs to come to the plate. They eventually will. But if they don’t in the near future I still truly believe we will see Allan competed for yearly.
This season may very well be the low point over recent memory. But trust me it’s had similar low levels in the past.
Senior and Allan will survive. Mark my words. There will be more teams next season (whenever “next” is) than you think. And there will be an Allan Cup....remarkably without Wade LOL
See everyone in 2021 in Dundas/Hamilton.
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Post by southoftheborder on Mar 27, 2020 4:36:15 GMT -5
Good points mlh01.
Money is what makes everything work. It would be great if some place like Tim Horton's could get involved in sponsoring the Allan Cup, a name associated with hockey from it's beginnings. With the amount of sports networks available you would think someone might be interested in broadcasting the whole tournament live.
I hope you are correct on some teams joining the Senior AAA level for next season. The lousy thing is the fact that many teams that play at this level aren't together for the whole season and that several provinces have lower level senior playoffs in the same time frame as the inter-branch qualifiers are being held. Kelowna had to drop out due to the Coy Cup taking place the same weekend a few years ago. I know with the exception of host teams there's no way to know who will be in the tournament but they could change the weekend of an inter-branch playoff to another weekend.
Lack of communication between all parties has been an issue for a while. Not knowing what is being done with qualifying spots ahead of time is just poor planning. Having two host put a major monkey wrench into the usual format that is understandable but they could have said if either host team earned the Ontario spot in the tournament that the other spot would have gone to the region with the most teams in qualifying or say a specific region such as the West (MB-SK) or the runner-ups in the Pacific and West region could play a series for a wildcard spot in the tournament if one of the host qualified via playoffs.
Senior hockey has one issue that junior, university, and professional hockey doesn't. The people playing are not students and have jobs during the playing season and getting as much time off as would be needed for traveling and playing would put a stress on someone's finances not to mention job security.
Hopefully, the current climate will not affect the economy and everyday life for too long. An event like this is almost unprecedented but life was much different about a century ago.
I am not being a professor of doom and gloom and would love to see senior hockey take off again and hopefully life returns to normal sometime later this year with even more teams from places that have long been active and reviving weaker (in terms of the number of entries) areas such as Atlantic Canada, British Columbia, Eastern Ontario, and Quebec.
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cb81
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Next year
Mar 27, 2020 7:22:01 GMT -5
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Post by cb81 on Mar 27, 2020 7:22:01 GMT -5
Good points mlh01. Money is what makes everything work. It would be great if some place like Tim Horton's could get involved in sponsoring the Allan Cup, a name associated with hockey from it's beginnings. With the amount of sports networks available you would think someone might be interested in broadcasting the whole tournament live. I hope you are correct on some teams joining the Senior AAA level for next season. The lousy thing is the fact that many teams that play at this level aren't together for the whole season and that several provinces have lower level senior playoffs in the same time frame as the inter-branch qualifiers are being held. Kelowna had to drop out due to the Coy Cup taking place the same weekend a few years ago. I know with the exception of host teams there's no way to know who will be in the tournament but they could change the weekend of an inter-branch playoff to another weekend. Lack of communication between all parties has been an issue for a while. Not knowing what is being done with qualifying spots ahead of time is just poor planning. Having two host put a major monkey wrench into the usual format that is understandable but they could have said if either host team earned the Ontario spot in the tournament that the other spot would have gone to the region with the most teams in qualifying or say a specific region such as the West (MB-SK) or the runner-ups in the Pacific and West region could play a series for a wildcard spot in the tournament if one of the host qualified via playoffs. Senior hockey has one issue that junior, university, and professional hockey doesn't. The people playing are not students and have jobs during the playing season and getting as much time off as would be needed for traveling and playing would put a stress on someone's finances not to mention job security. Hopefully, the current climate will not affect the economy and everyday life for too long. An event like this is almost unprecedented but life was much different about a century ago. I am not being a professor of doom and gloom and would love to see senior hockey take off again and hopefully life returns to normal sometime later this year with even more teams from places that have long been active and reviving weaker (in terms of the number of entries) areas such as Atlantic Canada, British Columbia, Eastern Ontario, and Quebec.
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cb81
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Next year
Mar 27, 2020 7:24:28 GMT -5
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Post by cb81 on Mar 27, 2020 7:24:28 GMT -5
Agreed that Hockey Canada needs to step up to the plate. Unfortunately, you can tell how much of a priority the Allan Cup is to Hockey Canada...it’s buried at the bottom of the “Championships” page on the Hockey Canada website, and the latest info they have is from 2016. No excuse for not having up to date information on the website!
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Post by enogca on Mar 27, 2020 19:43:14 GMT -5
I'm just going to be happy when Senior AAA comes back next season in Brantford.
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Post by wade on Mar 27, 2020 21:37:27 GMT -5
I’m not gonna quote MLH’s post. It’s redundant. Basically the same post has been made every off season since forever.
And I’m not gonna argue with him.
Here is the reality: Ontario is the only place in Canada with a league where the focus is on the Allan Cup and last season the total amount of SR AAA teams in Canada hit an all time low.
I don’t know if it’s mathematically possible for it to get worse. And...no...actually I didn’t lose interest AFTER The Army retired. I was done a couple years prior. 2017 was pretty much the point where I looked around & realized it wasn’t interesting anymore. More BULLSHIT than BITE is what was happening.
Corporate sponsorship for Allan Cup ain’t gonna happen. Hockey Canada has its partnership. It’s a contract and Allan Cup is not why they’re invested. We’ve learned this. Like I said....redundant.
And the point isn’t that there’s “ebbs & flows”. The point is that the ebbing overpowered the flowing. And it always will when your dealing with an enterprise that LOSES MONEY.
Its a money pit!! Always has been. But eventually people stop incoming to fill the pit. And that’s where we’re at right now.
And if you think the economy can ever again consistently support THIS money pit at the level it did...you’re a fool.
If you really wanna save something...turn your focus to JR hockey. Because that’s next to go. It won’t happen nearly as fast as SR AAA. But the slow drain is gonna start in the smallest JR venues and slowly work its way to the mid size operators. Soon...the leagues will be urbanized. Cost effective. But nothing like what it is now.
SR AAA never had that flexibility. So, we’re done.
One league in Ontario...isn’t a national competition. Nobody is fooled.
Well....almost nobody haha
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