|
Post by wade on Mar 30, 2023 15:37:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by mlh01 on Mar 31, 2023 10:49:08 GMT -5
What a great interview. Definitely Donnie being Donnie. He actually is the “Don Cherry of Senior Hockey”
He is almost single handedly trying to save the Allan Cup.
I hadn’t listened to this yet but everything he is saying makes perfect sense.
1) The Allan Cup should be open to all AA and AAA teams.
2) Costs to travel each year to the Cup should be taken from a “pot”. His figure of $1000 per team seems low. I’ve always thought min $5 grand per team in Canada. Every Rep hockey player in Canada approaches, and most exceed, paying $5,000 per PLAYER just to play minor hockey AAA. No reason each team in Canada can’t put $5,000 into a pot. Then qualifying teams don’t have to foot a $40-50 Grand bill just to get to the host town
3) Social media. Don mentions he is not tech savvy. Well that is evident throughout Senior hockey. They need to do a much better job on social media to help raise awareness. One of the best in Canada is the new Western Ontario Super Hockey League. Where they do lack in talent, they definitely don’t lack in social media. You can’t go on Twitter without seeing their updates. If they can step up the player requirements (limiting the # of high caliber players means at the moment they could not compete for the Allan Cup. My point is the other teams and leagues in Canada could learn from this league. More media always means more butts on seats !
|
|
|
Post by outwest95 on Mar 31, 2023 11:37:45 GMT -5
This was great to listen to. By opening it up to AA and AAA it really embraces this new invitational type of event, which moving forward isn't too bad of an idea. There isn't too much that separates the AA from the AAA teams other then depth of the roster, at least in my opinion. Without money coming in from HC to give to teams it makes it hard for sure, we have seen the big figure made pubic by Inny this year so anything made available in the future could help teams with a bill like that. Social media is tough, from my perspective, it looks like teams really handle that aspect and not so much the leagues. However, i think it would be cool to see like an Allan Cup specific social account that could have all these updates, vs having to go from team to team to find things.
|
|
cb81
New Member
Posts: 6
|
Post by cb81 on Mar 31, 2023 21:46:54 GMT -5
A couple of rambling thoughts....
It was definitely an interesting interview with Don Robertson. He has undoubtedly done a lot for senior hockey. That said, I have to wonder if it’s time for someone else to take the reigns as it relates to the Allan Cup? The Allan Cup is never going to be a major priority of Hockey Canada; however, my guess is if there is some structure/organization around it, it will be easy to get Hockey Canada’s support. Basically, it the leg work is done, Hockey Canada will be happy to support (or at least rubber stamp) the event.
As well, I’m not suggesting that any of the Sask teams could compete for the Allan Cup, but the fact that “A” is the top level in Sask is a bit arbitrary. Provincial teams are based on population (including of course import rules), but any “A” team can declare as “AAA” if they’d like. It all comes down to desire and of course money to go AAA.
in any event, I hope that we get back to an actual play off format for the Allan Cup vs. a “challenge”.
|
|
|
Post by wade on Apr 2, 2023 11:30:15 GMT -5
A couple of rambling thoughts.... It was definitely an interesting interview with Don Robertson. He has undoubtedly done a lot for senior hockey. That said, I have to wonder if it’s time for someone else to take the reigns as it relates to the Allan Cup? The Allan Cup is never going to be a major priority of Hockey Canada; however, my guess is if there is some structure/organization around it, it will be easy to get Hockey Canada’s support. Basically, it the leg work is done, Hockey Canada will be happy to support (or at least rubber stamp) the event. As well, I’m not suggesting that any of the Sask teams could compete for the Allan Cup, but the fact that “A” is the top level in Sask is a bit arbitrary. Provincial teams are based on population (including of course import rules), but any “A” team can declare as “AAA” if they’d like. It all comes down to desire and of course money to go AAA. in any event, I hope that we get back to an actual play off format for the Allan Cup vs. a “challenge”. Don has some long standing relationships with the hockey community in southern Ontario but he admits/proves in the interview he knows next to nothing about SR hockey anywhere else in Canada. And I ya I don’t think Don is “saving the Allan Cup”. He’s aimed ar turning it into a AA trophy. Like I’ve been saying for a long time now…Allan Cup should be retired before it should be awarded to second tier teams. I “get” why they’re doing things the way they are *this* year. But it would be shameful if they did it like this next year
|
|
|
Post by mlh01 on Apr 2, 2023 12:15:50 GMT -5
Wade, I feel you are misinterpreting what Don is saying and how he feels.
First off, your opinion is to can the Allan Cup. Don’s opinion is to continue awarding the oldest trophy in hockey. Many small towns have terrific memories of winning this Cup. Back to the glory days, right up to both your team, Bentley, and my town, Dundas, winning and hosting the trophy.
Don is not saying to turn it into a AA trophy. He never said that. He is saying they started classifying teams many decades ago. He is saying if you are AA and can compete with AAA teams, which would be proven in Provincial play downs, then why the hell not let AA teams compete.
What I struggle with is why you continually do not want to see top teams competing. Many, or most AA and A Senior trans have a mix of a few pros but mostly lower level Jr B or C players with a smattering of CIS.
There are now 32 NHL teams. Canadians over the last 3 decades flock to Europe for pro hockey. Minor Pro like the AHL and ECHL have expanded. Thus there are literally 1000’s of ex pros wanting to play….why not offer an avenue for these top players to play together on one team
|
|
|
Post by wade on Apr 2, 2023 17:40:25 GMT -5
Nobody is “choosing” to open up Allan Cup to second & third tier teams. They’re doing it because they have no choice.
The way top SR AAA teams operated was DIFFERENT and MORE DIFFICULT than the way lower caliber teams operate. But they did so, on the understanding that they’d be able to consistently compete with like minded clubs from all over Canada and potentially earn the honour of being crowned the best amateur men’s team in Canada, as Allan Cup Champions.
Don is of the opinion these top teams disappeared because too many teams were paying players too much money. I gotta tell you guys…it’s NOT accurate.
A couple years ago, I painstakingly went through some of the cornerstone SR AAA franchises and explained how each of them had become defunct. There we’re actually very few examples who ran themselves out of money because they spent it all on players. I’m not saying it didn’t happen but the fact is there was way more to it than that.
Don pointed out Horse Lake, specifically, as a prime culprit of this misnomer. And Don is categorically wrong on that one.
The truth on what happened to Horse Lake is: Yes, they were often flying players into GP to play games for that team. Yes, they spent tons of money on equipment and they had a lot of money. But that team was a GOLD MINE for the NPHL, The CHL & The Allan Cup.
Horse Lake did EXACTLY what SR AAA teams SHOULD DO. They ran a first rate hockey club. But because they were operated by a First Nation Reservation that happened to have a lot of money and they kicked the ever loving shit out of a few teams who happened to belong to some powerful governing cliques, they ended up getting fucked over, multiple times in multiple board rooms & eventually they said “Fuck. This.” And they quit. They were treated terribly. And even now, over 10 years after the last Horse Lake SR AAA campaign was launched, they’re still being shit talked. The ugly truth is (probably) there was racism involved and although most people won’t admit it, when I put all the FACTS together…it seems to be a logical motive.
But racism isn’t what destroyed the Lloydminister Border Kings. Or the Fort St John Flyers. Or the Illes Des Chenes North Stars…and you know what else didn’t destroy these teams? Paying players.
They all spent more money than your Mom & Pop local SR B team, for sure. But they also filled arenas. Won Championships and iced excellence.
In 2012, Sask Hockey BOTCHED Lloyds’ import player list. Whatever the circumstances were, there was a lot of finger pointing and Hockey Sask attempted to levy a BIG fine on the BK’s. That was the beginning of the end of the Border Kings. Very much the same thing happened to IDC in 2016. It’s all in here, I literally reported each incident along with several others & if you guys read the archived threads on here you’ll find them. It’s actually appalling how often it happened and it’s a HUGE reason why SR AAA is dead and it’s even more appalling that there are still on going smoke screens of “paid players” being the demise of SR AAA.
The money being spent on players was, in most cases, done through carefully crafted schemes where teams protected themselves against going over budgets and created ways of making these recruitments into investments, which again, usually proved beneficial to the people involved. The reason(s) it all died, boils down to all these passionate people gradually figuring out they were working harder & doing more to make SR AAA into a highly respected, recognized and prestigious caliber of hockey than what Hockey Canada was ever gonna do.
The Allan Cup and it’s perpetual inability to manage, promote & govern itself LOST the trust & loyalty of entire an entire Province inna 5 year flash fire between 2003-2008. Quebec’s top men’s hockey markets recognized the dead end road, they left Allan Cup and started up their own league with a sustainable business plan & gentlemen…the LNAH actually left 80% of Allan Cup operators in the dust in terms of product, consistency and longevity. So, don’t ever let anyone BULLSHIT you into believing it’s not sustainable for Mens hockey to invest some money on player recruitment.
The only people spinning that yarn are the ones who never figured out how to do it themselves
|
|
|
Post by wade on Apr 2, 2023 19:00:48 GMT -5
And as far as the question of “Why not open up Allan Cup to all teams?”:
Allan Cup has already been open to all teams for 20+ years. The only clerical requirement is to post a $1000 bond. Once you’ve paid the bond, you’re eligible for Allan Cup.
And depending on what area of the country/branch you’re in, just being the only men’s team in a specific area was actually enough to get you into Allan Cup, Hosting Allan Cup or at least within a few games of getting into the tournament.
This minimal amount of requirements produced some absolutely awful results which, apparently, the few readers of this forum either never knew about, forgot or outright ignore?
Penticton, Whitehorse, Powell River, Kenora…just a few off the top of my head…are examples of teams who (presumably) posted the bond, listed a AAA team, had to be included into schedule planning, qualifying brackets (hell one of them even had an Allan Cup HOST opportunity handed to them and they backed out at the last second.)
And what do they have in common? They either folded before ever playing ONE GAME or they gunnysacked an entire roster through the registry, playing a Mac Cup Series w/o ever declaring ANY roster (2015 Powell River). The Generals took that Hockey BC/Hockey Canada fuckover and did the best they could with it. It cost them a lot of $$$ and when the season was over, they discussed INCREASING the vetting process for SR AAA teams but nothing came of it.
What I’m saying is…the absolute last thing I’d be doing right now is eliminating the Allan Cup qualification requirements. By keeping it as haphazard & half assed as it was for the last 20 years, it caused way more problems than it ever solved.
I think…teams who make a rooted effort to pursue greatness want to compete with like minded organizations. And l know for a fact when these organizations are slopped into the same pail as Joe Off The Street, things get lost. Things like integrity, prestige, interest and maybe most importantly; $$$$!!!
In the podcast I linked on this thread, Don glosses over what happened to Stony Plain Eagles Allan Cup commitment this winter.
TBH, I find it half comical, half frightening it’s only being glossed over, the fact 1 of the 3 teams offered a FREE SPOT in Allan Cup, turned down the FREE SPOT.
Why?!?!
Because they only had about 10 players interested. They recognized they weren’t AAA calibre and they we’re throwing 1000’s of $$$$ down a bottomless well. Same thing with Cremona. I can’t imagine Inny was drawing big crowds either.
Anyone, anywhere and anytime CAN take a run at Allan Cup. I’m at a loss to understand how it’s even possible to make the regulations EASIER to compete? But somehow that’s a conversation here.
I say, if you want to restore Allan Cup, don’t start that initiative by making it easier. Make it harder, if anything. But make it worthwhile
Find some serious money. Not 5 or 10 thousand bucks. Fuck. That. Before you can have a serious conversation about having a serious Allan Cup you need to have serious money.
Six figure pot to the winner. Incentivize people/businesses & sponsors and you’ll have a chance at showcasing something sustainable
|
|
|
Post by outwest95 on Apr 3, 2023 11:55:00 GMT -5
I think wade has some solid points on getting more incentives for the desire of teams wanting to compete, or even jump from a lower level to a higher level of hockey. I think some of that comes with risk and having to try new things, like this years tournament or forming new leagues, with the hope that it can get back to some degree of what it used to be. Yes there needs to be some sort of criteria that makes the elite different from the rest. You have to find this balance of keeping it as unique to the skill required, with allowing the room for growth and potential. Overall for an organization I think it really depends on where you view your team at, whether in win now mode, thinking to the future, or a brand new just looking to find your identity. With that said, It does need to grow back up to as close as it can be to its height, we all need to be patient with the direction it is going, or direction people want to take it. If mistakes are made then it is up to us as fans to make it clear and hopefully teams and committees or whatever will listen. The overall message I get is keep it unique, that is a fact I will agree with 110%. Change doesn't come easy, and hopefully whatever change they bring in can allow for some creativity, and fresh ideas, while keeping that uniqueness that made it so desirable in the past.
|
|