ALLAN CUP 2022 ? Tournament ?

[rhl]

Mar 18, 2022 11:16:22 GMT -5 formerplayer said:

Thanks to the RHL for clarifying but that just brings up more questions. Why were there 'emergency meetings' and removal of executive outside of an AGM which isn't in any bylaws? Your bylaws states that the forfeiting teams must compensate Innisfail. How did three teams all of a sudden coincidentally have issues making these games happen? If Stony or Innisfail approached the leagues as AA teams (because HA says there is no AAA tier this season) would the leagues still deny them because they are 'Good AA' teams? Stony wanted in the NCHL.

Something doesn't smell right.

I hope we can all repair the damages done but if leagues are canning executive mid-way through, teams aren't playing agreed upon games, and Hockey Alberta isn't communicating whether AAA exists or not, how can a team be faulted for filing AAA June 1 (the Horse Lake Rule) when Hockey Canada and Hockey Alberta later decide they don't have a AAA tier this season for competition? I know nothing but if everyone followed their own rules, Innisfail would not play in the RHL playoffs (as clarified above) and Hockey Alberta could just declare them Provincial Champs and Hockey Canada could make a statement saying Innisfail is the Allan Cup winner (as the only team submitting within the dates) or the Showcase teams did file in time and the winner of that and Innisfail can sort out their own Challenge Cup approach old school.

Glad to clarify again - The emergency meetings took place when the member teams of the league realized the existing executive was not prepared to make a stand against Innisfail and what was right. The list of items that the prior executive failed to manage properly (meeting minutes, financials, by-laws, etc) played a big part in why the league had found itself in this position to begin with. Information was not passed along to member teams that would have been very relevant as teams planned for the 21/22 season.

Regarding cancelled games:

- Game #1 vs Fort Macleod - As Fort Macleod sat at the bottom of the league with 2 wins the team (players) decided they would not participate in their final game against Innisfail and supplied the league with their penalty cheque for doing so.

- Game #2 vs Siksika - League executive received a call 3 hours prior to game time that the zamboni in Siksika had hydraulic issues. They had a crew working on fixing but machine would not be ready for game time. Innisfail was notified as soon as possible.

- Game #3 vs Lethbridge - This game was to take place after Innisfail had already been notified of their permanent suspension and expulsion from the league because they would not honor the motion under which they had been accepted into the league - "Lethbridge Lightning make the motion to accept the Innisfail Eagles in the RHL for regular season play and the Eagles will NOT participate in RHL playoffs or provincials" Motion passed 3 in favour - 2 opposed. Hockey AB made it very clear to all member teams the play-off decisions/format are decisions managed by the RHL - the RHL has managed those decisions!

A few comments have been made around "Innisfail is just a better team and does a better job in recruiting, etc." - No question Innisfail is a strong team but at the same time they are strong because they pull players away from other teams as they can offer "the opportunity to play for the Allan Cup". The RHL lost high end players to the Eagles for that very reason. And a quote right from the management of the Eagles - "they would not be the same team if they have to play at the AA level - players will not drive 2 to 3 hours for a weekday practice if there is no AC opportunity". If the Eagles had to play as a true AA team in any of the provincial AA leagues, their on-ice squad would look different to the point that they would probably play to a AA level and not AAA. The existing AA teams in our province are typically community based teams receiving community support - this is a model that works! Provincial AA teams have reached out to the RHL showing tremendous support for our cause (very much appreciated) - we have only tried to do what is right and what was supported when the Eagles joined our league - nothing more...

Again, we feel it is necessary to repeat: We feel for what has happened to the Eagles and still are not 100% sure as to how things unfolded with Hockey Canada and Hockey Alberta but to get bullied is not what we are about. All over the Hockey Alberta website are mentions of "bullying and mental health" - One would think this only applies to minor hockey - well we have witnessed this at the Senior level - it is too bad as our great game deserves better!  
  
    

[formerplayeraswell]

As a former player as well, I've had the opportunity to compete not only against the best players in Alberta but Canada as well. I've been fortunate to play against Innisfail over the years and I've also played against teams in other leagues from other provinces and even current leagues at the AA level in Alberta. Never have I ever seen a league treat a team in such a negative way, to place all the blame solely on one team is an utter embarrassment and as far as I'm concerned really shows the character of those in charge of this league. If anything the league and its representatives should be working together to find a logical, sound, and co-operative solution to its current predicament. Not place blame solely on the lap of former executives or a single team. As a former player I really hope current players are following this thread and the developments of this league because it is an embarrassment to Hockey Alberta and if I was still a player I would not want to be apart of a league that could ruin my season at any point it seemed fit. I was one of these players that came to play from out of town, and from my understanding teams like Lacombe, and Innisfail have no choice but to source outside talent simply because of city size (small player pool) and look to bigger cities like Calgary and Edmonton to fill a roster regardless of A, AA, or AAA status. From my experience what keeps the best teams competitive, again regardless of status, is a teams ability to recruit (whether local such as RHL or Outside), management and coaching, facilities, and support staff. That is what keeps players coming back to an organization regardless of status. Not some make believe notion that a team is stacked up just for an easy cup run.

From all the information I gather it seems to me that somewhere in the line there was a communication breakdown between league, teams, and Hockey Alberta. I cant comment too much on how a league is run because I never experienced that for myself, however what I will say is that there is something fishy here going on. The whole Ft. McLeod cancellation only feeds into this notion that Innisfail was too good. How can the league even accept that as a reasonable request for cancellation? Like whatever if your 15-0 or 0-15, as far as I'm concerned you have an obligation to see it through. The Lethbridge cancellation seems fishy because your basing a cancellation off of something that wouldn't have happened for likely another week anyway, so why not use that game as a tune up for playoffs? I would assume that was an Innisfail home game to? So that is fishy because now you cause the team to lose out on funds. Also in the bylaws it states that these cancellation games have a payment penalty to the team not cancelling. So wouldn't Siksika, Lethbridge and Ft. McLeod owe Innisfail money? And from Hockey Alberta bylaws wouldn't that make them in not good standing with the league and Hockey Alberta? Especially if they haven't paid Innisfail? Wouldn't that extend to travel cost, rink rent, official cost, and league fine fee?

[wade]

Nowadays, I’m not even calling myself a causal observer but I do want to provide some context & experience some might want to consider:

If you followed the RHL at all for the past 20 years…(like me)…then you’d already know RHL had game cancellations/postponements/folded teams each & every season going as far back as you want to go.

I’m not saying this to be disparaging. It’s a fact. My personal impressions of the RHL have always been…it’s a good, fun league for local guys to play some full contact hockey with minimal commitment.

Inny should’ve done some homework here IMO.

And maybe they did but desperation led them to this option?

Either way…The last thing anyone should be is surprised by game cancellations in this league. The RHL has historically maintained a far more casual approach to its operations than what a SR AAA operation is accustomed to. And I’m not saying that’s right or wrong…it’s just very different than what Inny was doing a few years ago.

And yes…you bet your ass Inny promised everyone that without the big bad Generals around…they’d actually have a easier time attracting SR AAA interest. I said it at the time and I’ll say it again now…that’s categorically false. Yes. It’s coming to fruition now …just as I said it would.

And it’s not gonna get better by pointing a finger at the RHL.

[pepsi88]

I wouldn't be surprised if the league gets suspended and no team goes to provincials.

I think it's wrong to label the generals and eagles that way. Each team does things differently, and I can only imagine that in the past 2 maybe 3 years the only thing that was on any team's mind was survival. Like you have 2 years of a pandemic, plus a season of 14 games against one team, how can you grow the sport and build something if you're only playing one team, in Innisfail case, and then get slammed by a pandemic? Yes, any team would jump on the chance to play in a league that would accept them, and there was probably no way they would do the 2 team league thing again.

It's unfortunate the north-central didn't let stony in, otherwise, we would be having different conversations this time of year. With stony folding for a year, it only leaves the one AAA status team, as a result, the league should've been able to acknowledge this in a constructive way that works for all parties involved. Communicate with Hockey Alberta so they can get a clear picture of how to approach said issue, and whether or not it is feasible to allow the team to continue in playoffs and onto provincials. At this point, it honestly just looks like they are punishing a team for being too good. Yes, I understand the league made a statement here regarding Innisfail participation, however it was agreed upon way back a year ago, maybe 2 years ago at this time. How can you rely on this decision to still be the best and most accurate way to approach things, especially in the changing climate as mentioned? Especially if it is just a verbal agreement and not written into bylaws like the RHL makes it sound.

[wade]

The only reason to suspend the RHL would be to save face. Which, makes it a sickening possibility for sure.

That being said…I don’t think that will happen. I think Innisfail will figure out it’s time for them to drop the AAA chase and ask the NCHL for membership. I don’t know how that request will be answered.

But I think if everyone is transparent and on the same page in agreement that AAA & Allan Cup hockey is dead or at least unworthy of the hassle with the way it is half-assedly handled right now…then next steps are to get everyone into what could become an even better AA league.

[mlh01]

Wade, you’ve been very negative on Senior AAA hockey since Bentley/Lacombe folded. You were the self proclaimed “Don Cherry” of Senior hockey. You posted almost daily on Doug’s board. You posted often in Newfoundland. Now that you’re sour on this brand of hockey, why keep posting?? If you don’t like it, go away !

I will grant you that Senior AAA hockey has been fading. Both in numbers and financially. Covid then reared it’s ugly head. It was the last nail in the coffin for many levels of hockey - from Timbits to Senior AAA to the NHL. Everyone suffered and frankly are still suffering in many instances. Some teams folded. Some leagues folded. Some are hanging on til the crowds and fear of Covid subside.

But there is still interest across the country. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Newfoundland are playing Senior AA hockey current year. Ontario has a 3 team showcase ongoing. Have heard Brantford will be back. And hopeful new franchises in Caledon and Oakville for 2022-23.

Likely Manitoba and New Brunswick have interest in having AAA teams next year. Owners like Don Robertson are striving to keep this brand alive. The Allan Cup is sacred. Just because you lost your local team in Alberta, shouldn’t mean that Innisfail should give up their dream of winning a National Championship.

Why not help provide answers. Why not attend a few Inny games. Support the brand. You don’t need to go very far back to remember just how great this level can be. Peter Zezel, Rick Vaive, Jay McKee, Steven Rice, Gilbert Dionne - these are just a few of the former pros who helped pack in the fans in Ontario. These types are players are not going to go away. Not everyone makes $11mil like Marner and Matthews. Many get a sniff of pros. Hang ‘em up. But want a last kick at a small spotlight. AA does not provide that for the most part. Owners like Don treat the players like pros without costing big bucks.

As these leagues resurrect, we need to try and find solutions. Pleading for Senior AAA hockey to disappear, like you do Wade, does not serve one once of purpose.

Copy and paste this post. There will be an Allan Cup in 2023. Senior will grow again. Likely an uphill climb. But that thirst for a National Championship as old as the Allan Cup will keep it alive, hopefully beyond all of our years !!!

[formerplayer]

Well said mlh01. And if everyone just abandons Senior AAA then the same battles happen at the AA level with more focus on that being the top tier. I even heard someone mention 'we should have a national championship for Sr AA.'

• Budgets need to be brought back down to a normal level.
• More transparency between teams and leagues to help solidify the product.
• More transparency on budgets between the teams.
• More support from the associations to represent Sr hockey to Hockey Canada.
• Less toxic individuals being the loudest in the room while being most secretive behind everyone's backs.

Are the Ontario teams willing to host the tournament again in 2023? I'd love to hear from the teams there.
Is the winner of the Showcase being declared a provincial AAA champion at least?

[mlh01]

*** Robertson Cup Final starts next week ***


Dundas, Hamilton square off for Robertson Cup
DUNDAS-"We are excited and look forward to the 2022 J. Ross Robertson Senior AAA
Cup championship and the opportunity to win the iconic Robertson Senior AAA Cup. The
ACH is very pleased with how the Flamborough Ducks played this season as a start-up
franchise guided by General Manager Colin Court, and Head Coach Peter Natyshak. The
Ducks made the ACH Mens AAA Hockey Showcase event possible, and the League looks
forward to next season, and a full schedule", said Real McCoy President and General
Manager, Don Robertson.
"The reigning ACH Champion Hamilton Steelhawks and the Real McCoys look forward to
a great final between each other to cap the season. The Steelhawks are loaded with
former professionals, so it will be an exciting challenge for the Real McCoys to capture
the Robertson Cup starting April 8th at Grightmire" Robertson continued"
"Hockey Canada are pausing the Allan Cup event this year as the Leagues across Canada
rebuild and prepare for the 2023 Allan Cup event which should come back in all is glory,
Robertson said
All games between the Steelhawks and the McCoys in the JL Grightmire Arena in Dundas.

Best of Three Final
Friday April 8th Dundas Real McCoys vs Hamilton Steelhawks @ 7:30 p.m.
Sunday April 10th Hamilton Steelhawks vs Dundas Real McCoy @ 7 p.m.
Monday April 18th Dundas Real McCoys vs Hamilton Steelhawks @ 7:00 p.m.

[wade]

I won’t quote any of the above posts but for the few people here reading what is left of the forum…I can tell you that in AB & SK there was ZERO interest from anyone other than Inny at the AAA level and that will definitely be true again next season.

I did have a brief conversation with someone in SK, two years ago, asking if I felt it was worth it for them to post the competition bond in AAA SK. The concern expressed to me was whether or not the bond would be returned in the event of cancellation and my advice was to hang onto the $$$ because the idea of the bond, in principal, is to ensure a level of genuine intent from the team and that because the same genuine level of intent is not reciprocated from the branch(s) it’s not sensible to commit any cash.


As far as AA level being interested in National Titles…as I’ve explained many times before…thats been done before: It was called Hardy Cup. And just like Allan Cup, it failed because there is not enough hang around cash to pay for that level of travel/commitment.

The Allan Cup doesn’t have a function anymore. It’s purpose was to award the best Sr team in all of Canada and with 90% of what’s left of Sr hockey deciding not to contest for a national championship and not making any plans of ever doing so…there is NOT a functioning tournament bracket to be had.

There is another thread here listing all the defunct teams from just the past 10-20 years. It’s two parts appalling to go down that list:

1) The amount of teams put in the work, believed in it and made a conclusion it wasn’t worth it anymore.
2) The amount of teams who did exist but nobody even remembers or recognizes them.


That list contrasted with the list of teams coming on board in the future is never more out of balance than it is right now.

That’s reality.

[wade]

As for solutions to the problems…well…that’s fucked. Why?

Like I said for 10+ years…without a network of teams…there are no prospective teams/sponsors/players willing to invest $$$ or time in something where there are no assurances of quality of competition, frequency of competition or cost of competition.

The only thing SR AAA was able to coordinate for 20 years was
a steady procession of more going than coming.

Dozens upon dozens of teams found out in varying amounts of time & money the same lesson: It doesn’t work.

I suppose you could change the definition of the Allan Cup and allow college and university teams to compete.

Thing is…those players are recruited with scholarship incentives. That contradicts the Allan Cup constitution. And you can bet your ass there aren’t any existing Senior teams who would compete with any decent community college team and certainly not University teams.

[southoftheborder]

Why would any university teams want to compete for the Allan Cup? Back about a century ago it made sense as there was no national university championship and many teams competed for an won the Allan Cup.

Realisticly, using the same approach as what Canada does at the Junior B level could be an option with the current qualifying regions being the final round of playoffs and eliminating the Allan Cup itself.

Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, Newfoundland, and Saskatchewan and to an extent Ontario are the only provinces that have a regularly contested provincial championship.

New Brunswick and Quebec have several leagues in each province and could potentially have a provincial championship.

PEI is just too small for a high enough calibre league to even compete for an Atlantic championship unless a team or two were part of a league in New Brunswick.

Nova Scotia has a large enough population and could potentially get a league or two going with the right financial support in place just by virtue of the number of former junior and university teams in the province.

There are 13 provincial level sanctioning bodies (one in each province plus HEO, OHA, NOHA, and HNO in Ontario) across Canada. The potential is there under the right circumstances but with current economic affairs it would very likely take a while to get all levels going.

[dontcallitsenior]

Best 2 of 3 Finals between Hamilton and Dundas for Ontario AAA. Games will likely be live-streamed on the Real McCoys facebook page.