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Post by wade on Apr 5, 2015 23:25:33 GMT -5
Correct.
Petrolia, Aylmer, Tillsonburg all played in the MLH in the early 2000's. They were middle of the pack teams in the league at the time...save for Aylmer's improbable trip to the 2004 Allan Cup (where they might have won one game? I'm going off memory, sorry)
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Post by wade on Apr 5, 2015 23:30:30 GMT -5
Those aforementioned teams had 3-4 good players/team.
I believe the league also trudged through game cancellations back then.
And perpetual pissing & moaning about the "big money teams" paying $$$ for talent.
And soon...Cambridge was the last (and the best) of those teams to pull the pin.
Can't see this being the time to go back into those markets...with or without the talent to put in the sweaters.
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Post by munzie on Apr 6, 2015 0:58:48 GMT -5
Ontario has held a massive population edge over everyone else since forever. Their SR AAA track record doesn't reflect anything even close to this. Not since the 1960's at least. Respecfully, I believe; Prior to 1960 Ontario won 29 Allan Cups out of 50 years Since 1960 Ontario has won 20 Allan Cups out of 55 years. However of course, top level Senior teams basically did not exist in Ontario for the period 1988 thru 1999 (12 years). So I believe it would be reasonably accurate to say that from 1960 thru 2014 Ontario accounts for 20 Allan Cups out of 43 years. 58% of the entire countries Allan Cups prior to 1960 47% of the entire countries Allan Cups from 1960 onwards where Ontario teams existed to play for. Just modest accomplishments I guess, but that's probably just becuase we are modest kind of folks (well at least some of us), and we also appreciarte the other provinces who won the rest.  |
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Post by munzie on Apr 6, 2015 6:17:21 GMT -5
SC having Hamm as a coach and poaching a half-dozen or so players is actually great or the league...the more rivalry passion, the better. That can be fleeting animosity. Gotta wait & see whether or not Stony Creek can stand on their own 2 skates after the Brantford infusion fades away. The CHL has an almost identical situation with Innisfail. They've for a huge spike of enthusiasm with Sutter going there...but...how long can it last & where does it go from here? Plus...how does it affect Brantford long term? Poaching players is such an exciting thing for the first 6 months to a year...but...based on my observations it's only synthetic buzz and it comes with long term negative spin off. I'm not just sure who the referred to "half dozen or so 'poached' players" are supposed to be. If it's referring to players moving from Brantford to Stoney Creek, I can think of three. That would be Mike Ruberto, Ryan Healy & Jeremy Bloomfield. All three, good players to be sure. Quite possibly all residing closer to Stoney than Brantford, and obviously given or granted their releases from Brantford. Heard Roberto was maybe not that happy in the Branford scheme of things last year or maybe visa-versa, I don't know. The Roberto family unit appears to be pretty cohesive to me, and so joining a couple of brothers already in Stoney may well have been a desire. I suppose "poaching" could be just a lose term of sorts so I'll just carry on. I guess Brantford didn't have too much trouble picking up addequet replacements in fairly short order. I don't wish to get into a futle prolonged argument about one group of players vs the other. I'll just note that the replacement group that Brantford successfully picked up, on balance turned out pretty well. Points don't meen everything, but of Jones (9), Medeiros (league leading scorer (53), Marcoux fast as a bullet (25), Alcock (23) & big rugged defenseman Chistmas (23), for avg. each points total of 26.6 over a possible 24 game schedule. That's well better than a point a game even if they had all played every game. They also obtained Shane Salmon who was not there to score goals and didn't, but to many a foes consternation handed out physical abuse. I'm not suggesting it was a task without any effort but the fact is the Brantford brain trust were able to find these guys pretty quickly so take from that what you will. I might also suggest that this group of Brantford replacements are far younger than the group departed, and therefore may well provide a long term positive spin off as opposed to negative. Admittedly we do not know for sure. Only time will tell. As for Stoney, I have on several occasions last year offered that they were a very good first year team and that was not just nice charity coming from me. They also proved with their then coach/manager that they could find and attract additional quality talent as last season went along. Retired Brantford player Byan Hamm came over to start the season in Stoney as assistant coach, and susequently took over as head coach mid season and in my view did a good job, and adjusted some style of play problems that were getting his team in more trouble than need be. Original head coach/mgr. Dan Caco moved over to Dundas as an assistant and for his trouble he became a Robertson and Renwick cup winner and is now off to Newfoundland for a shot at the Allan Cup. I remember stating at this seasons start that there would be no need to hold any tag days for Stoney this current season and I think their performance bore that out. I also have to think that there is good reason to believe they will continue to be a force going forward. This too is something that only time will bare out, but I see no reason in favour that it will not happen. I would suggest a better home team fan base has been a bigger deficiency that the product on the ice. Fortunately with the proximity of their arena and the pleasentness of their greeters at the ticket desk, they bring in opposing and nuetral fans fans like me who dread the mesh in the round and the partial hidden views but nevertheless attend on a regular basis anyway. So that's my constructive case reponse.......all ready to be constructively picked apart. Please be kind!  |
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Post by brantfordblast2 on Apr 6, 2015 8:35:03 GMT -5
We will take it easy on you munzie. Agree with your points about the Blast. It was more to do with difference of opinion than poaching. As for the 10 team league, there is no shortage of players, high end players at that. The shortage is owners willing to take on a team. Someone said it's a catch 22 that's right it is. There also is no shortage of fans. If you have decent owners who will spend money like Ham and Don then it can work in multiple markets, even ones close in proximity. The fans will support. Dundas, Brantford and Cambridge are 20 minutes apart and yet all 3 rinks were filled many Friday evenings. If you treat the club like a pro club with all them ameneties (without the pay ahaha). Then it can work. Agree more teams are needed and the model looks good to me. Under that system I could see more owners stepping up.
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Post by wade on Apr 6, 2015 9:49:45 GMT -5
Ontario has held a massive population edge over everyone else since forever. Their SR AAA track record doesn't reflect anything even close to this. Not since the 1960's at least. Respecfully, I believe; Prior to 1960 Ontario won 29 Allan Cups out of 50 years Since 1960 Ontario has won 20 Allan Cups out of 55 years. However of course, top level Senior teams basically did not exist in Ontario for the period 1988 thru 1999 (12 years). So I believe it would be reasonably accurate to say that from 1960 thru 2014 Ontario accounts for 20 Allan Cups out of 43 years. 58% of the entire countries Allan Cups prior to 1960 47% of the entire countries Allan Cups from 1960 onwards where Ontario teams existed to play for. Just modest accomplishments I guess, but that's probably just becuase we are modest kind of folks (well at least some of us), and we also appreciarte the other provinces who won the rest. Munzie, Since 1992...or the SR AAA era...Southern Ontario has won 2 Allan Cups. Both of these titles came in HOST years...which should certainly NOT discount them...but...might be a minor consideration if Southern Ontario was ever to be seriously considering a mass expansion at this level. Might ALSO want to consider that in the last 23 years there have only been 4 S.O. Finalists if I combine Whitby's 2 near-misses from a few years back. Might also want to consider that with the CURRENT total amount of S.O. teams...the ACH holds 500% more SR AAA teams than B.C. and a similar giant % over MB & SK. I bring that into the discussion to demonstrate that your ALREADY leaning on the population advantage to create a far better existence than...lets say...MOST of Canada. Now...I don't think any of these items really disqualifies the idea the A.C.H. could operate a bigger network of teams. I think it shows that IF the league mass-expanded...it would not be doing so under the likelihood of the entire group of teams competing at a comparable calibre and the floor teams would be "even worse" than the current floor. What does that mean for the top teams? I think the top teams of an expanded league would probably end up being the same top teams of the current league. Call it an educated guess. And then ask yourself why the top teams would want MORE GAMES against weaker opposition? And then deny my "educated guess" and assume a mass-expanded A.C.H. would feature DIFFERENT names on the trophy...but...ask yourself the SAME QUESTION as above. Tough answers? I think so. Whatever the case might be...there is a dramatic decline on S.O. national success in the most recent & most relevant window of time and there is also a dramatic decline in national interest in SR AAA hockey as a whole. So...its actually necessary to discuss ways of improving things...but...I am almost 100% convinced that making the A.C.H. into a bigger league is A) Not very likely. B) Not addressing the most pressing issues of the mass picture. |
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Post by mlh01 on Apr 6, 2015 11:11:08 GMT -5
Also as of now, the former Senior AAA league in Quebec, that is now technically "semi-pro" employs 8 teams. Yes many players are enforcers but also the majority of players are ex-pros / ex-Major Jr A players.
They actually have a league mandated rule that every player must be from Quebec, or at least played in the QMJHL.
Thus, if Quebec has that talent, most certainly Ontario has much more.
The chore is getting them to play Senior...
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Post by wade on Apr 6, 2015 11:33:21 GMT -5
Also as of now, the former Senior AAA league in Quebec, that is now technically "semi-pro" employs 8 teams. Yes many players are enforcers but also the majority of players are ex-pros / ex-Major Jr A players. They actually have a league mandated rule that every player must be from Quebec, or at least played in the QMJHL. Thus, if Quebec has that talent, most certainly Ontario has much more. The chore is getting them to play Senior... The challenge is getting them to play...AMATEUR. Ontario could run a PRO league. No doubt in my mind. Hell...we could all run PRO leagues and we could all talk about ten different ways of doing it, too. But...when you introduce $$$$ into the equation....your not even on the same planet as SR AAA/Allan Cup play. Existing teams, under existing operational budgets are crippled just with the stick & tape $$$. The "idea" more players would play if you offered more money...isn't really an idea at all. Its illegal. If you can find a way around it...I have a nuclear fusion formula I would like you to complete for me as well. |
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Post by jimc on Apr 6, 2015 13:12:16 GMT -5
Amateur is a very good point...there is a surplus of good to excellent Sr. Level players who are not playing because they would rather play beer league with their friends than play Sr. Hockey for free...there is a bit of an entitlement in ON I find that does jot seem to exist out west.
The other issue is finding fans to spend their cash coming to comes. ON is far mover over-served in terms of existing hockey offerings at the jr and sr levels than anywhere else in the country. Not to mention there being simply more competition for people's entertainment dollars...even our most rural areas are close enough to any number of good sized-cities. Out west, many communities are far more isolated, and there is a lot less to do, within an hr or 2 drive.
These are huge issues.
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Post by wade on Apr 6, 2015 14:26:40 GMT -5
Some of SR AAA biggest health issues are past the point of curable. It doesn't matter where you go or what medicine you think you might try...the plague of modern reality has spread her arching, evil black wings.
We have iPhones and X-boxes and The Bachelor. We don't have 45 minute forays across the frozen tundra to watch a hockey game and we don't have skates & sticks for the price of Popcorn anymore, either.
The Allan Cup can have a future...but...we need to understand where we are at and what we have a realistic chance of looking like going forward.
We need to get serious about a corporate sponsor for the tournament.
We need to get realistic about what kind of rules were going to abide by.
We need a smart/savvy/ambitious person(s) to enforce these rules & represent this level.
We need ALL TEAMS who wish to participate to understand this is supposed to be a challenge to win the trophy, not a chance to challenge the trophy without winning.
And we need to get working on this list. Yesterday.
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Post by mlh01 on Apr 6, 2015 21:24:30 GMT -5
Wade I agree with much of what you say. Although the list of "to-do's" is much longer than you list. It's frustrating from afar when you see all that can be done to help senior hockey...but then you take a step back and realize so much of Senior hockey is a result of volunteers. They can only do so much.
What I agree and disagree with you at the same time is the effect technology has had, and will have.
The iphones and social media does mean there are more options (agree)...however the iphones and social media can actually help in more ways than hinder Senior hockey.
Most levels of hockey now have larger crowds and much larger fan bases. Much of this growth can be directly attributed to technology.
Major Junior for example has grown leaps and bounds over the last 30 years. TSN certainly helped with the World Junior coverage, but social media and the wide spread audience that the Internet provides is the real reason, or at least the largest single reason.
I actually think that because more people know about your product, more people will eventually check out a game "live". You mentioned that fans aren't as apt to drive 45 minutes across the frozen tundra. In some cases yes you are correct. But I also think it's happening more often nowadays. Junior hockey used to be just the local market. Now I know for a fact that many drive hours to get to games.
Attendance in junior, NHL, AHL, etc has grown substantially (if you don't count the NHL "southern" fiasco - ie Phoenix, Florida, etc.)
What I'm trying to say is the Internet has opened up Senior hockey to a much larger audience. Junior and Senior hockey has not changed drastically...yet Junior attendance has skyrocketed - try getting a ticket to a playoff game in Kitchener, London, etc - great crowds in all Southern Ont rinks....they take advantage of this tool. The OHL is everywhere on the net.
Senior teams are so far behind in the technology era...I've stated many times, it's a travesty that there is not a link on the Chinook League and/or ACH League websites to this forum. Every post that is made is an advertisement for the league and Senior hockey...but the powers that be choose to ignore.
I know Dundas has embraced technology but it's in its infancy - they have a website and participate on twitter/facebook...but there is so much more. Again, a forum for fans to discuss hockey during the other 6 days a week before the Friday night game...it can only help the ACH. There are maybe 50+ regulars on this site. Advertise it and it would be 10 times larger and would grow.
As wade points out, the iphones and xbox's take away your audience...Senior hockey teams need to get those people back...would love to check that one off the list but it's so far off the radar that it's not likely in the near future.
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Post by jimc on Apr 6, 2015 23:35:47 GMT -5
Honestly, i think the boost in popularity of other leagues works directly against Sr AAA hockey.
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Post by joesnugg on Apr 7, 2015 0:57:30 GMT -5
wade the teams that you mentioned being in the MLH misleading please do not insult todays MLH by even thinking of comparing the two .it wwould be similar to major jr a and tier 2 jr a .
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Post by wade on Apr 7, 2015 17:19:46 GMT -5
It's the direction our entire culture is going that needs to change.
And I'm a total hypocrite for even trying to preach about it. I have the ProBoards App on my phone & between that & Twitter..I don't even want to try and add up weekly hours wasted.
Mind you...it's 99% hockey related and my Twitter account has produced some good SR hockey exposure. It's not easy competing for followers & timelines when your squashed in among the Bob Mckenzies' and the Paul Bissonette's of the cyber world.
If I were still able to make ALL the games...like I used to before I became a Dad...I think I could build up momentum.
Lots of my followers were disappointed when I didn't go to Dundas a to do LIVE TWEETING of the games...it will be the same thing this year.
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Post by naitch2727 on Apr 9, 2015 9:54:51 GMT -5
I was at the game in dundas tonight I heard the brantford blast will be making announcement this coming week they will be folding can anyone confirm this Well...new developments.
Brantford is attempting to brink the Erie Otters to town. With them declaring bankruptcy...I'm being told there are some high level discussions. What I don't know exactly-who is behind the group in this endeavor...I have heard some names but not sure there is any credibility behind it. This is interesting as I do know Brantford "loosely" threw their hat in the mix when the Belleville Bulls and Mississauga IceDogs were conducting due diligence but not much of a viable effort apparently. With the latter moving to a brand new facility in St.Catharines...no chance for Brantford. Main issue for Brantford is the civic center...not exactly what an OHL team is looking for. It was a great location when the Brantford Alexanders were around but not much has changed since those days. Here is where things get interesting however...would the city pony up for a new facility and the interim play out of the civic center with a capacity of approx. 3000? Or, would the civic center undergo renovations? According to the Brantford rag (Expositor)...this is an option.
So where does this leave the Blast? If an OHL team were to come to Brantford, Blast are as good as gone. I have asked if Peter Ham is behind the interest in the Otters...based on the smirk I received and "no comment"...I think there is a possibility. Stay tuned...
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