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Post by munzie on Sept 11, 2011 13:14:27 GMT -5
Because it's a little quiet just now, I hope I can be forgiven for reference to a relevant story, even if it is from another sport. Firstly, congratulations the the Whitby Warriors (Jr.A lacrosse) who just brought home the Minto Cup as Cdn. Champions, after defeating Coquitlam B.C. Another feather in the cap of that community which has such a rich athletic history. Secondly and to my point, I have attached a link to an article regarding the Brampton Ont. Major League lacrosse team now competing for the Mann Cup, (Cdn. Senior Lacrosse Championship) against Langley B.C. In no way is this post an implied excuse for the Hockey team I cheer for. Nor is it meant to be a justification or a denunciation. As a fan I sure wish that when I showed up in Kenora last spring, that I wouldn't be looking at a half empty bench when it was my time to cheer. I'm not even sure what the solution would be. Maybe others have some constructive ideas. I simply would like to point out that rightly or wrongly, this is not a unique phenomenon in amateur sport today. Brampton has a rich, successful and dedicated history of national champions. Yet, when you read the attached article in it's entirety, there it is in a significant way, "other commitments". It's not that uncommon. I think I can even recall, when the Allan Cup was held in Brantford a few years ago, that even the greatest organization on earth did or was talking about flying guys in from the mighty west who couldn't get there for some of the weekday games. So what might be the solution? Does there need to be a solution? It is after all amateur sport, and as last I checked I wasn't paying two hundred bucks a ticket, even though comparatively speaking, on some nights it would be well worth it. Still, it's only natural to want to see your team well represented, so that if the unthinkable happens, and they don't win, well you can at least say they gave it there best shot. www.tsn.ca/lacrosse/story/?id=375566
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Post by naitch on Sept 12, 2011 9:22:10 GMT -5
The reality of the matter is that amateur sports will continue to have this problem...paying bills, putting food on the table, etc...is top priority. As it pertains to Senior AAA hockey in Ontario...the only solution i see is to increase the amount carded players each team can have & get on board like the other provinces re: affiliation with another team, league, etc...
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regal
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by regal on Sept 12, 2011 14:04:34 GMT -5
I was just on Hockey Canada's website and did not see anything about who is hosting the AC this year. I know Saskatchewan is the host province. Is it Lloydminster again???
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Post by hockeypops on Sept 12, 2011 23:35:52 GMT -5
The reality of the matter is that amateur sports will continue to have this problem...paying bills, putting food on the table, etc...is top priority. As it pertains to Senior AAA hockey in Ontario...the only solution i see is to increase the amount carded players each team can have & get on board like the other provinces re: affiliation with another team, league, etc... As it now stands in Canada for the 20111 / 2012 season, teams can affiliate 19 players from anywhere in the province playing at a lesser level such as AA. The bidding war has already begun as BC has only 1 AAA team, Fort St John and they have the pick of an all star BC lineup. Nfld seems to be in the same situation and won the AC last year with 10 affiliates. Saskatchewan is no better with something like 200 AA/A teams and only two declaring AAA, Lloydminster and Rosetown. Ontario and Alberta hold the bulk of AAA teams and actually compete hard to make it to the AC. In the past, you could only affiliate with one single team, playing at a lesser level. This new rule makes no sense unless you're the only AAA team, virtually guaranteed a seat at the AC and want to stack the deck. It makes no difference what you do in the regular season, because your moving on anyway and the AC is played "AFTER" all provincial AA and A playoffs, leaving all players available. Now convince me this makes sense!!!!!!
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Post by wade on Sept 14, 2011 10:17:47 GMT -5
Its impossible to go further than 3 sentences deep into a response without re-insistning we need new leadership. Dean Filane doesn't know what he is doing and it seems as though at least a couple of the Branch delegates are equally inept. Now, with that out of the way, I don't know there is any way to avoid what Dundas pulled this spring. That was just plain sad and I gotta' wonder if it wasn't 99% their own damn fault? Almost like it was done by design. The Generals were flying players back & forth throughout the week in Kenora. They had to deal with scheduling conflicts. But they did so as best they could and they iced a full roster each game. Actually, in the 6 AC's The Army has been to...they have never started a single game without a full roster. It wouldn't surpirse me if MOST AC participants can say the same thing....or....very close to it. Thats not to say we shouldn't try and brain storm some suggestions to improve it, mind you. For example....Hockey Canada could get off their golden gleaming asses and pitch in to help when a player(s) has to make extra commuting during tourney week. Do they pay for any extra plane tickets? They could. You would think. Even having some extra people on hand to do the driving back & forth from the nearest airport or handling flights...would go a long ways towards showing they have a slight concept of respect for these teams. But then there is the other side of it...a bigger issue, IMO. I also think it would be really nice if....somehow....someday...ALL of us working joes/janes could have a lot moer time to be active and passionate about something other than our jobs. There is nothing more disgusting & wrong then hearing about a guy who...'couldn't get time off from work...' because he had to do the proverbial 9-5 for some redundant 'career' and not because the sun would fall from the sky without him....just because we're all taught that its 'OKAY' to miss out on anything except for work. And then...one day your old & tired and lonely and all you have to show for it is a pension and a picture of your dead spouse on the night stand. Fuck that! The government should impliment a program where...if you need to get away from the desk to take little Billy mini-golfing or go to an Allan Cup or some other function which is (actually) a service to something or someone (COMMUNITY, anyone?)...they could temporarily replace you with an illegal immigrant crack dealer from off the street. The beauty of this hybrid program would be....the crackhead does't actually get YOUR hourly pay. The crackhead would just get the option of jail or a honest day of work. And YOU...would still get paid for the day and still get the $$$ you need to pay the bills. Granted, the crackdealer doesn't have any training or experience on YOUR job...but...truth is...YOU weren't that good at it either! YOU...are as good or better as a father or a better hockey player/mini-golfer/et al than you are accountant/truck driver/ cable TV installer et al. At the very least...the crackdealer can do the job for 8 hours or even a week if he's a real go-getter. (sigh) I should run for President. I am a better solver of worldy issues than I am equipment operator.
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Post by naitch on Sept 15, 2011 7:44:16 GMT -5
Its impossible to go further than 3 sentences deep into a response without re-insistning we need new leadership. Dean Filane doesn't know what he is doing and it seems as though at least a couple of the Branch delegates are equally inept. Now, with that out of the way, I don't know there is any way to avoid what Dundas pulled this spring. That was just plain sad and I gotta' wonder if it wasn't 99% their own damn fault? Almost like it was done by design. The Generals were flying players back & forth throughout the week in Kenora. They had to deal with scheduling conflicts. But they did so as best they could and they iced a full roster each game. Actually, in the 6 AC's The Army has been to...they have never started a single game without a full roster. It wouldn't surpirse me if MOST AC participants can say the same thing....or....very close to it. Thats not to say we shouldn't try and brain storm some suggestions to improve it, mind you. For example....Hockey Canada could get off their golden gleaming asses and pitch in to help when a player(s) has to make extra commuting during tourney week. Do they pay for any extra plane tickets? They could. You would think. Even having some extra people on hand to do the driving back & forth from the nearest airport or handling flights...would go a long ways towards showing they have a slight concept of respect for these teams. But then there is the other side of it...a bigger issue, IMO. I also think it would be really nice if....somehow....someday...ALL of us working joes/janes could have a lot moer time to be active and passionate about something other than our jobs. There is nothing more disgusting & wrong then hearing about a guy who...'couldn't get time off from work...' because he had to do the proverbial 9-5 for some redundant 'career' and not because the sun would fall from the sky without him....just because we're all taught that its 'OKAY' to miss out on anything except for work. And then...one day your old & tired and lonely and all you have to show for it is a pension and a picture of your dead spouse on the night stand. Fuck that! The government should impliment a program where...if you need to get away from the desk to take little Billy mini-golfing or go to an Allan Cup or some other function which is (actually) a service to something or someone (COMMUNITY, anyone?)...they could temporarily replace you with an illegal immigrant crack dealer from off the street. The beauty of this hybrid program would be....the crackhead does't actually get YOUR hourly pay. The crackhead would just get the option of jail or a honest day of work. And YOU...would still get paid for the day and still get the $$$ you need to pay the bills. Granted, the crackdealer doesn't have any training or experience on YOUR job...but...truth is...YOU weren't that good at it either! YOU...are as good or better as a father or a better hockey player/mini-golfer/et al than you are accountant/truck driver/ cable TV installer et al. At the very least...the crackdealer can do the job for 8 hours or even a week if he's a real go-getter. (sigh) I should run for President. I am a better solver of worldy issues than I am equipment operator. Wade...i take it you have way too much time on your hands or with your idea stated above, your getting ready to roll out the NDP platform.
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Post by Curtis on Sept 15, 2011 7:47:14 GMT -5
Quite a bit there to digest buddy. comin down pretyy hard on the crackhead dont you think? I hear where your coming from and I get it, but people dont like change...unles of course its in a name !! This off the whitby website, Major league Hockey is changing the league name to "ACH". "Allan Cup Hockey" is replacing Major league Hockey as the new monicker. Maybe "This" change will help with a full lineup!
Should be a good tournament in Saskachewan in the spring.
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Post by wade on Sept 15, 2011 9:05:03 GMT -5
NDP platform???!!! Nope! My perspective has the legendary PC Leader, Ralph Klein, influence all over it. Remember the story about him paying a drunken visit to a homeless shelter? Thats the stuff legends are made of, But, I digress. SR AAA teams need to be able to recruit players with the ability to include full time & serious hockey as a part of their 'working stiff' lives. Its hard to do. Often times, its up to the team to help them out by faciliating travel arrangements et al. As Munzie said, it is afterall, amateur hockey. A lot of it comes down to the culture created in & around each SR AAA team. Some of them 'get it'. And some of them don't. Bottom line is...hockey has got to be a passion for each player. You can't contribute with only half assed interest.
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Post by deanbruyere on Sept 16, 2011 22:44:41 GMT -5
The whole setup is bullshit....its uphill all the way. A team needs a great sponsor, ice time, guys who will committ and then you need those who make the rules to pull their collective heads out of their asses. The Kenora Thistles never received a dime from the tourney last year...that is just so wrong on way too many levels...HNO even ran the Branch Playdowns the year before and kept the money......makes me wanna puke
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Post by munzie on Sept 17, 2011 22:03:06 GMT -5
The whole setup is bullshit....its uphill all the way. A team needs a great sponsor, ice time, guys who will committ and then you need those who make the rules to pull their collective heads out of their asses. The Kenora Thistles never received a dime from the tourney last year...that is just so wrong on way too many levels...HNO even ran the Branch Playdowns the year before and kept the money......makes me wanna puke Hi Dean....One of your comments in particular has left me wondering. You are not the first one to state flatly, that the Thistles never received a dime. I sure wouldn't profess to know one way or the other. I do know that a lot of dollars go out for the other participating teams to defray some of their various costs. Notwithstanding your other comments, and certainly not trying to minimize them, I still have always had some trouble understanding, "never received a dime". I thought that was a pretty decently attended tournament including the day games. I think the 50/50 draws were consistently as good as any that I've seen. Generally in the $1,500 to $4,500 range. I don't know who would receive money from the food and beverage area. The hands on folks running that operation worked their buns off all week and to me they were still very pleasant. The quality of offerings was OK, but no better. I found myself sort of just going back for a hot chocolate if I was feeling a little chilly. I could and would have gladly spent a whole bunch more, if you know what I mean. Perhaps I got spoiled forever in Steinbach. Anyway, without minimizing some of your other inferences, I still have always been curious as to where all the money went. My impression was that the minor hockey folks more or less were the runners of the event locally. If that was actually the case, then (a.) why was that? and (b.) did they not make a dime either? If the answer to (b.) would be that no one in Kenora made any money, then it would seem to say that the Allan Cup in it's present form just isn't an event that can generally return any money, or alternatively, that a serious investigation should be undertaken to clearly account for the money that was taken in. Although it is probably not any of my business, I can't see the harm in a little factual enlightenment to get started. As I've said already, your not the first one to say that the Thistles got nothing, so your point made. I just have a little something in my head that's asking, is that a full accounting for Kenora organizations in general, because I have not heard anyone say it quite that way. I really do not know one way or the other, but it would be helpful to have clarity from someone before moving ahead.
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Post by hockeypops on Sept 19, 2011 16:31:39 GMT -5
The Thistles didn't make a dime because THEY chose to be a non-participant in their own event. I have first hand knowledge that not only did they turn the tournament over to the minor hockey assoc., they also did not run a beer garden or attempt to get anyone to run one for them. The Thistles got the Premier Hockey Event for Canadian Amateur Hockey, then did nothing but pass it off. If you would like to discuss something wrong with Hockey Canada and the Senior reps, how was this allowed to happen. What is minor hockey doing, running this event. As Wade can attest, the tournament was run just like a minor hockey event. Not to knock the minor hockey organizers from Kenora, because they had no knowledge of the expectations of such an event. A perfect reason to suggest the organizing committee needs to attend an Allan Cup to see what is needed and what is missing.
Want a proper AC, then do like the AJ or WHL and lay out the expected signage, banners, venue set-up, etc., etc., put it up for bid and let the teams who are prepared to run a proper show get the event, then have someone making sure the proper things are being done and prepared. Why do we continue to treat the AC with so little respect. Look at what has happened in the past and change it. Teams who know the AC is due in their province put a AAA team together in time for the awarding of the event, then fold. (does Powell River ring a bell) Or teams get it awarded to them because they are the only AAA team at the time the event is awarded (anyone hear of a place called Lloydminster in the past and yes once again or Fort St John)
I can appreciate the need for going East and West in our current format, but the selection process is sadly lacking. There was more work and effort that went into the 2013 AC from the 3 teams bidding than ever went into the last 3 Allan Cups combined. When there is no expectation of an event you sometimes tend to get what you get and the Thistles got exactly what they should have expected from doing nothing and letting minor hockey run the show.
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Post by deanbruyere on Sept 19, 2011 16:53:32 GMT -5
Sorry for my rant.....I shouldnt speak for Kenora. I am just pissed at what I experienced in my 2 years trying to put forth a team....
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regal
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by regal on Sept 19, 2011 19:19:03 GMT -5
Just to let everyone know that the Powell River Regals have not folded. At least not as of today. Regals made it to the AC in Fort St. John by beating out White Horse. Actually, that year we had a AAA and AA team. The AA Regals won the B.C. AA Championship that season. Last season we only had a AA team as we are trying to build a local core of players to compete at the AAA level. We are still waiting on Mid Island and Sechelt to see if they are going to register AA. If they don't it looks like we would be the only AA team south of Williams Lake and they play in the Northern League. We have not given up on going AAA again, it has just been put on hold.
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Post by hockeypops on Sept 21, 2011 2:10:07 GMT -5
Just to let everyone know that the Powell River Regals have not folded. At least not as of today. Regals made it to the AC in Fort St. John by beating out White Horse. Actually, that year we had a AAA and AA team. The AA Regals won the B.C. AA Championship that season. Last season we only had a AA team as we are trying to build a local core of players to compete at the AAA level. We are still waiting on Mid Island and Sechelt to see if they are going to register AA. If they don't it looks like we would be the only AA team south of Williams Lake and they play in the Northern League. We have not given up on going AAA again, it has just been put on hold. I stand corrected. My comment about Powell River is more correctly that your team status changes regularly from AA to AAA and back again, jumping in and out of the AC run. Lloydminster on the other hand, basically competed with themselves. Yes, players and teams are hard to organize and finance but year after year in Ontario South and Alberta the same teams compete at the AAA level, without the jumping in and out. Sure the Real McCoys and Generals have found winning formulas in their respective leagues but you hardly ever see the other teams from those leagues going AAA then AA and a year later AAA again. For sure many of those teams have their ups and downs because of players availability or finances but they stick it out. On another subject, from what I have heard from reliable sources, every AC, including Kenora, has made a profit. My understanding was that each team does a report of some nature to the local provincial hockey association or Hockey Canada. I have heard rumors that some teams made enough to help finance cash shortfalls in the years after they hosted the AC and I have heard rumors that other teams spent their money loading up imports in an attempt to win. Either way, money was there, generated by or because of the AC. As to how much money, well that all depends on the organizing committee and what they put forth as an event to capture those fans and sponsors dollars. In the case of Kenora, I can't imagine the reward would have been anywhere near what FSJ would have wrangled into the cash tills, the previous year.
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Post by kenthistl on Sept 27, 2011 18:22:50 GMT -5
Hockeypops - you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground! Right from the announcement of the AC being awarded to Kenora it was the local minor hockey association that was responsible for everything - they put the bid in and they did not want any input from the SR Thistles. The SR Thistles did not have the bank account to put the bid in for the cup and that's just a reality that many teams have. The SR Thistles hockey team DID NOT GET A DIME from minor hockey as a result of the tournament and I would bet that they did make a decent little profit on the event - but I have never been told. I can tell you this first hand because I ran the team and coached the team! When we learned that there was not going to be a beer gardens there was not enough time for the team to try and arrange something - we were concerned with putting a decent team on the ice. The SR Team was invivted to the first planning meeting and then was not invited back - so we had no say in what happened with the tournament - we were just a participant like everyone else!!!!
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