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Post by wade on Mar 2, 2011 12:19:55 GMT -5
You guys put words in my mouth. Thats how you get confused. By mentioning LBK, I am neither endorsing or slagging them. Same goes for FSJ. The Rosetown Red Wings really believe in what they have. There is a very good chance they will post the 'AAA' bond for next season. For now....they are LBK's affiliate and its enough of a talent infusion to potentially push the Border Kings all the way into contention for is this Allan Cup. This isn't just 'opinion'. This is the Don Cherry of Senior Hockey telling you how it is. I've seen some of these guys play versus Bentley and I've seen the results of the ONE game they used these affiliates versus Fort Sask. Do you see endorsement here? I am only passing on some information. 'Don't shoot the e mailer'...as they say.... As for my ACTUAL opinion on FSJ... I picked them as the favorite last year. This year....I think they are the favorite to come out of BC. However...there are some key pieces still absent from the championship roster. Its simple: If its the same team as 2010....they have a great chance at the same result as 2010. Kimbi Daniels, Andrew Derton and....of course...Ryan Manitowich are big skates to fill.
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Post by captain on Mar 2, 2011 17:15:22 GMT -5
I will add a couple of comments about FSJ and knowing what AAA is allabout. Yes they have a good organization, but i think they have been AAA for 5 short years. I know i watched them lose the BC AA (coy cup) in 2006. SO i don't think you need to be around forever to know all the tricks .Penticton is obviosly making mistakes but i am sure there will be other BC teams that will come along to challenge. Powell River will probably get back in the mix at some point. they will be in Prince Rupert next week for the BC AA ,along with Williams Lake and Kitimat. Some of these AA teams are drawing close to 1000 fans for there playoffs. FSJ can only dream of that kind of Support( did they even get that for the allan cup?? FSJ is definetly the BC favorite but PG is not far behind
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flyer
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Post by flyer on Mar 2, 2011 17:57:46 GMT -5
Allan Cup final 2250 fans, average attendance for all games at AC was 2100 for Flyers games and 900 for non Flyer games. Having said that sometimes teams are a victim of there own success as the attendance at NPHL games are usually only 100-200 as it seems as though with no playoffs the fans are only interested in watching the big games. As for the Flyers short AAA history I think it has been very successful as they won 4 Savage Cups, 1 Mackenzie Cup and the Allan Cup in 4 years. As for the 2006 Coy Cup the Fyers went with 12 skaters and came within a goal of pulling it off. Only 3 players that made that trip are still with the team.
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Post by captain on Mar 2, 2011 18:13:04 GMT -5
yes flyer your AAA seasons show agreat success and ithink Bc could have other teams do the same if anybody ever got there s#%t together. good to hear the allan cup crowds were awesome but kind of a shame only 100 or 2oo for a regular season. Rupert, kitimat and smithers regularly get between 6oo- 800 for regular season games, but it is the only hockey in those towns other than minor. good luck at the savage,could be the last easy one ?
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Post by wade on Mar 2, 2011 18:13:09 GMT -5
Allan Cup final 2250 fans, average attendance for all games at AC was 2100 for Flyers games and 900 for non Flyer games. Having said that sometimes teams are a victim of there own success as the attendance at NPHL games are usually only 100-200 as it seems as though with no playoffs the fans are only interested in watching the big games. As for the Flyers short AAA history I think it has been very successful as they won 4 Savage Cups, 1 Mackenzie Cup and the Allan Cup in 4 years. As for the 2006 Coy Cup the Fyers went with 12 skaters and came within a goal of pulling it off. Only 3 players that made that trip are still with the team. All top 'AAA' teams struggle with low attendance during regular season games where the outcome is bankable. The thing really important about those 100-200 Flyer faithful who DO attend the NPHL games is...a big % of them also make the big road trips to see their team play in other venues. The Flyers have made the 10 hour trek down to Red Deer in 2007 and 2009 and they brought close to a couple hundred fans both times. Its this smallish in numbers....but giant hearted....group of people who truly drive the bus for all of Canada's top AAA teams. Bentley, Dundas, Stony Plain and a few others....generate similar dedication from their fans. I wish it was possible for all these teams to qualifiy for every Allan Cup...but then we wouldn't have red hot rivalries and that just wouldn't be as fun would it?!
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flyer
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Post by flyer on Mar 2, 2011 21:36:55 GMT -5
Agree Wade...it's just to bad that there isn't more cooperation to start provincial and regional playdowns ( Pacific Region ) sooner so that the Mac Cup could be played over a 3 week period with each province getting a couple of games . That way the fans would get a chance to be part of the best playdowns in the country plus it would make it alot easier for players to commit to play as it would not be as dfficult as a 5 game series.
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Post by wade on Mar 3, 2011 14:06:22 GMT -5
The reasoning for running the entire Mac Cup in one host venue is logistical. Each year, only one team has to travel. (Once.) Obviously, minimizing bussing costs is the idea here and I think it makes sense. I would think this strategy was a more popular one back when Powell River was participating. Even now....without having to book flights...a 2 way charter bus from PG or FSJ down to Central or Nothern Alberta would be in the range of 10,000K I'm ballparking. Thats a bill you only want to see once! The other great thing about running 5 games consecutively is, unlike regular games, both teams are in town and this allows more flexibility for start times, opening up the gates for more kids to see this hockey before the 8:30PM starts which are often too late for kids and even adults who want to be off the roads and in their beds before 11PM. The 2 Mac Cups down here have been very well attended. Sooner or later...someone else in Alberta is going to have to get a chance to host this series. I think its done a great deal for helping the Generals to promote their brand around Central Alberta and it would do the same for Fort Sask...and I am certain they NEED that kind of an event to get extra exposure and support. I just don't see it happening this year, however. Im confident they can get their semi-final with SLA done this weekend....but...its going to be a gargantuan task for them to derail The Army's Alberta dynasty right now.
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flyer
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Post by flyer on Mar 3, 2011 14:57:30 GMT -5
Being able to let your fans watch some games of each series as your progress towards the AC gives away more expose and $$. As well it requires less time off work for the players ( which is a big issue ) and instead of beating each other up in 5 games/5 night senirio a week before the AC a better chance to compete once you get there. If there was 2-3 different teams from each province winning thier provincial title each year then the present system means you have a slim chance of ever hosting a Mac Cup.
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Post by wade on Mar 3, 2011 15:27:31 GMT -5
The economics only make sense under the current format.
The big bill, which everyone wants to minimize, is the chartered bus.
It doesn't matter if its an over night trip or the bus sits for 2 -3 days...the final bill is the same and with 20 hour round trips like were looking at with the current geography...like I said before....the bill is going to be astronomical....therefore....a weekend set here and 2 or 3 more there is only going to leave both teams in the hole for the series.
The other thing to remember is....even if you split games between both teams....your still going to end up asking players/coaches to work around work days because you have to factor in commuting time on top of ice time. There just isn't enough weekend to allow for the entire event to play out on Saturday/Sunday. Someone winds up bussing out on a Friday morning and then bussing overnight, getting home on a Monday morning....if they're pushing it.
With the current format...one team is asked to commit to MAYBE one more day of travel than what a split series would require and the HOST team is garunteed 3 gates to get everything paid for...with the team accountant hoping for more....because we both know....the profits aren't anywhere in sight at day 2 or 3. Its not until the 4rth game you would see any kind of a windfall.
Finally...this is, afterall, BIG BOY HOCKEY and I think its important to require more than just a weekend warrior commitment level.
SR AAA players are, essentially, needing/hoping to plan for 2 weeks per calender year where hockey takes precedent over everything else. Its not easy...but....its not supposed to be easy. This is a National Championship and if all you can lend is your weekend time and not your week days....maybe its the beer league tournaments which would be in your best interest?
Don't get me wrong...Im not saying..."YOU"...I just think its something for the consideration of ALL Allan Cup hopefuls.
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flyer
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Post by flyer on Mar 3, 2011 18:12:39 GMT -5
The Flyers have recieved in the ball park of $10000 per trip to the Mac Cups they have traveled to Red Deer for where as the actual cost for these trip has been more like $20000 plus. The system has worked well for Bentley because if they win AB this year they will have hosted 3 of the last 4 Mac Cups. With average crowds of 1500 @ $10/head = $15000 * 4-5 games $60000 - $75000 plus 50/50 - $2000/game @ 4-5 games =$8000-$10000 for a grand total of $68000 - $85000. Expenses: Visiting team $10000, Ice $4000, Officials $3000 Total Expenses $17000 for a net profit of $51000 - $68000 @ 3 years = $153000 - $184000 profit less the extra $10000 it cost the year they traveled for 4 year total of $ 143000 - $174000. Where as the BC teams have had only one years revenue ($51000 - $68000 profit) to off set 3 years having to cover a travel short fall of $10000 @ 3 years = $30000 for a return of $21000- $38000. Of course there is alot more costs involved when your running a competive AAA team but they are similar for both teams. So yes the Mac Cup has been good for Bentley because if they host this year it will mean they will have recieved in the ball park of $105000 - $153000 more then the BC teams will have recieved. The system needs to be changed and hopefully it will be at the Hockey Canada Summit in Kenora during the 2011 AC.
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Post by wade on Mar 3, 2011 18:38:45 GMT -5
The 'system' is very simple. They alternate host provinces.
The Generals traveled for the 2004 McKenzie Cup, in Trail BC that year and again in 2008.
So, this being an odd numbered year and all...it might work out they host their 3rd Mac Cup.
As it stands right now....they've hosted 2 and traveled for 2.
They've never hosted an Allan Cup or a Provincial Tournament and there is no team in the modern history of SR AAA hockey which has traveled more total miles in a 10 year period than the Bentley Generals.
Not even close.
The system should be up for review each year....but if there is a mindset out there that it should be changed because its working out to the advantage of the Bentley Generals....then your out of your mind.
Do the math...The Army pays a stupendous price for their success and they have the air miles to prove it!
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flyer
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Post by flyer on Mar 3, 2011 18:53:40 GMT -5
Not trying to change the system to effect Bentley just trying to make it fair to everyone and allow each teams fans the ability to see as much of teams playdowns as possible and as result give each team an oppurituny to recover more of there expenses. It's ironic that Bentley stated that they where in favor of changing the format however they didn't want to do it till next year.
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Post by colonel on Mar 3, 2011 22:28:00 GMT -5
Flyer, Wade is often correct in many of his posts. Here again he is right when he suggests the Generals have travelled the most out of any team in the past 6 years. In your half-witted math equation you forgot about the Generals 5 trips to the Allan Cup. Don't even think for a moment that you have any idea how much it costs to run a perennial powerhouse at any level of hockey until you can get your facts straight. Here's a clue to get thru your thick head : Brantford Ontario-1 week-30 people. You better start adding some zero's to your equation.
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flyer
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Post by flyer on Mar 4, 2011 8:41:35 GMT -5
If you would review what I said I mention the fact that it is expensive running a competive AAA hockey club. I am simply doing the math at the Mac Cup level and if take the 4 Mac Cups inculuding this year the table has definitly been tilted in AB favor. If BC wins any of them they have the same expenses at the AC with out anywheres near the same revenue. I must of hit a nerve there Colonel but I'm not going to get into the name calling like you and Wade.
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Post by wade on Mar 4, 2011 14:54:37 GMT -5
I have yet to see any 'math' showing an explanation as to how splitting the Mac Cup is going to generate more money. I have illustrated a simple, straight forward explanation of why its done the way its done at the moment. Its not at all difficult to understand why the current system makes sense to everyone involved. Ironic the Flyers would have asked to change the system as soon as it falls on a season where BC is NOT hosting the series. We'll see how motivated they are to this cause next summer when its back to BC. And if FSJ was really genuine about designing a new system which opens the door for more teams to get involved...why aren't they tabling a tournament suggestion for the Mac Cup? Is that not, actually, the ONLY way to get anywhere close to the goals you CLAIM your chasing? Nobody was ever going to fall for what FSJ tried to pull here....claiming that by splitting the Mac Cup between 2 venues it was going to improve both ends of the equation. Like I said before...giving both teams the chance to split 4 gates....just doubles bussing costs for the series and both teams LOSE money when its all said and done. Think about this, too: What would happen if the series went 3 straight games?! Someone just paid tens of thousands of dollars to host ONE GAME?! That would break the back for damn sure. So, in the end, this was a blatantly transparent attempt to steal away a mitten full of money from a team that just happens to depend on that money to stay afloat. They were not trying to right the ship. They were only trying to rock the boat.
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