kingd
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by kingd on Mar 10, 2012 14:57:31 GMT -5
Who was the player ? Would the Eagles have won the game if this player was not dressed ?
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Post by jimc on Mar 10, 2012 15:35:56 GMT -5
sigh...once again the ridiculous Hockey Canada rules, and their various interpretations, makes a mockery of, and leaves a stain on, the game.
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Post by wade on Mar 10, 2012 15:50:06 GMT -5
Who was the player ? Would the Eagles have won the game if this player was not dressed ? 1) The question should ask: Who were the SEVEN "import players"? 2) Probably not...but...thats besides the point. This is NOT a problem which ONLY Horse Lake has encountered. There are numerous recent examples of non-compliant rosters resulting in forfeited games & point(s) in the standings of respective leagues having been taken away. However, this is also not the first time this year Horse Lake has been in hot water. They had Keegan Dansereau signed on a card under illegal cirsumstances a few months ago & from what I understand, Dansereau was handed a one year suspension.
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Post by hockeypops on Mar 10, 2012 16:06:44 GMT -5
Who was the player ? Would the Eagles have won the game if this player was not dressed ? 1) The question should ask: Who were the SEVEN "import players"? 2) Probably not...but...thats besides the point. This is NOT a problem which ONLY Horse Lake has encountered. There are numerous recent examples of non-compliant rosters resulting in forfeited games & point(s) in the standings of respective leagues having been taken away. However, this is also not the first time this year Horse Lake has been in hot water. They had Keegan Dansereau signed on a card under illegal cirsumstances a few months ago & from what I understand, Dansereau was handed a one year suspension. As I understand it the 7th import could in fact have been an A/P that was an import and would count as an import to the over all team roster.
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Post by munzie on Mar 10, 2012 16:11:09 GMT -5
sigh...once again the ridiculous Hockey Canada rules, and their various interpretations, makes a mockery of, and leaves a stain on, the game. Yup, blame the establishment EVERY Time. So I just have to ask. Do you think there would EVER be a time when the team would have to take full responsibility for their own actions? The team in question seems to be pretty competent at putting together a good team. Should that be where competency and responsibility ends?
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Post by wade on Mar 10, 2012 16:33:22 GMT -5
sigh...once again the ridiculous Hockey Canada rules, and their various interpretations, makes a mockery of, and leaves a stain on, the game. Yup, blame the establishment EVERY Time. So I just have to ask. Do you think there would EVER be a time when the team would have to take full responsibility for their own actions? The team in question seems to be pretty competent at putting together a good team. Should that be where competency and responsibility ends? You weren't asking me but I would like to throw my 2 sense in anyways... ... Firstly, As it is at the moment, theres no doubt in my mind that is IS the team which is ultimatley responsible to ensure each gamesheet is compliant. However, it doesn't need to be so treacherous & tedious. It is, afterall, 2012 and with the vast resources were all afforded through technology....its easliy possible to construct a system which prevents non-compliant rosters/transactions/ineligible players or gamesheets from occuring. Similar to how my bank card prevents me from over-drawing my bank account with real time features...team rosters should/could (IMO) utilize online/real time checks which simply "decline" any submissions which are in any/way/shape or form unrecognizable to the system according to ALL rules. The current online registration system seems to flirt with optimum usage of technology available...but...it stops well short of full service/preventive maintenance, IMO. And as far as Horse Lake displaying the ability to find talent...sure...they DO find plenty of good players. However, because they do not participate year in year out AT THIS LEVEL, plus the fact they are notorious for not even attending critical meetings with their SR Hockey Counsel, plus the fact they recruit players from all over the country and end up siging several players at the last minute...it all ends up a recipe for imminent cataclysm.
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Post by hockeypops on Mar 10, 2012 17:58:19 GMT -5
Yup, blame the establishment EVERY Time. So I just have to ask. Do you think there would EVER be a time when the team would have to take full responsibility for their own actions? The team in question seems to be pretty competent at putting together a good team. Should that be where competency and responsibility ends? You weren't asking me but I would like to throw my 2 sense in anyways... ... Firstly, As it is at the moment, theres no doubt in my mind that is IS the team which is ultimatley responsible to ensure each gamesheet is compliant. However, it doesn't need to be so treacherous & tedious. It is, afterall, 2012 and with the vast resources were all afforded through technology....its easliy possible to construct a system which prevents non-compliant rosters/transactions/ineligible players or gamesheets from occuring. Similar to how my bank card prevents me from over-drawing my bank account with real time features...team rosters should/could (IMO) utilize online/real time checks which simply "decline" any submissions which are in any/way/shape or form unrecognizable to the system according to ALL rules. The current online registration system seems to flirt with optimum usage of technology available...but...it stops well short of full service/preventive maintenance, IMO. And as far as Horse Lake displaying the ability to find talent...sure...they DO find plenty of good players. However, because they do not participate year in year out AT THIS LEVEL, plus the fact they are notorious for not even attending critical meetings with their SR Hockey Counsel, plus the fact they recruit players from all over the country and end up siging several players at the last minute...it all ends up a recipe for imminent cataclysm. Yes there are many technologies available to stop or prevent an illegl or non-compliant roster but that is the one area that leaves a team / coach open to the ultimate betrayal of itself. If the team, intentionaly or by mistake records and plays such a roster then they are subject to the loss as defined by Hockey Canada. At some point a Coach / team has to govern itself. Measuring the teams and rosters I would think financially Stony got the better part of the deal, now being guaranteed game 5 in their own barn and HL having to cover another trip south. Based on the crowd count for game 1 and assuming the same count for game 2, their gate will barley cover the expense of a HL 2 day trip and should they befall the same fate as the Gens at least the extra gate will help defray costs. It's really to bad the people around Stony don't understand how much good hockey they're missing. Fort Sask has the same problem, only drawing an average of 300 per game. Barley enough gate money to cover the trip to HL for game 1 in their series. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting Stony can't or won't win but their is a certain reality to how solid HL is and how they play. Some teams might do well against them and some may not. Having never played them before any Chinook team seems at a disadvantage this year. When Weslosky returns next week HL has one more weapon at it's disposal to stop Stony, something HL did with an unheralded 35yr old AA goalie with a short pedigree in fridays game. Yes he has been named to the NPHL All Star Team but that's not pedigree by my defenition.
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Post by wade on Mar 10, 2012 18:46:12 GMT -5
Not sure what the point of the post above really is? Hockeypops, are you telling me you do NOT want to see the current system improved to prevent teams from starting/finishing games with non-compliant rosters? Or are you telling me you feel its sufficiently possible to submit compliant rosters already? Because if its the latter...I will have to politley agree to disagree. I have sunk both eyes ten feet deep into every page of the rule book and there was a time when I had a fair chunk of it memorized in my little peanut brain. But even "The Don Cherry of Senior Hockey" gets confused from time to time and enough alterations/interpretations and rulings both strange and straight-forward have happened over the years...I gotta be honest...Im not sure my ass and a hole in the ground are different now?! And like I keep saying...its SOFA KING easy to just fix it and be done with it. A software programmer and one summer of steady work would end up with something so much better than what we have right now. And FTR...lets really get down to brass tacks here...what we HAVE right now...is the laughing stock of hockey. So utterly broken and bass ackwards the Father of Lies himself is embarrased. Its beyond me what the point of NOT fixing it might be?! All I can guess is...maybe....there is something to be said for an informal requirement for a SR AAA GM to be intelligent & well versed in the rules of engagement. I get that. Its nice to know the rules are enforced (eventually) and if you want to play at this level you need to know WTF it is that your doing. BUT....the reprecussions of NOT having every "i" dotted...are just a tad too extreme for me. Consider: The gamesheets get filled out by the COACH prior to a game...BUT...the coach is TECHNICALLY not schooled in all the apsects of roster enetitlement. In fact...nobody is. There is NO formal protocol to "educate" any General Manager (the person ultimatley responsible for signing each player to his roster). The same applies to the COACH. Hard to believe? Yes. Silly? Yes. Bushleague? Isn't that just the shit of it though, eh? Damned right it is bushleague. We ALL LOSE when this shit happens. Everyone needs to wake the heck up & get together to make things right!!! There is no excuse for scuffling on this. Its gotta be fixed by next fall. Gotta be.
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Post by hockeypops on Mar 10, 2012 19:19:09 GMT -5
Yes wade I think the rules today are sufficient. They have been the same for some time. Only 6 imports are allowed and that includes an A/P carded for the game. All other players are to be properly carded / affiliated by the time dates set. Affiliates by Jan 10 and the full 25 man roster by Feb 10. If a Coach at this level is not aware of a players status and chooses to play him, then the coach should suffer the consequenses. By your logic we all know speeding is an offense but just to be sure no one breaks the law intentionaly or by ignorance, all vehicles are equiped with governers that are electronically triggered when you reach the next speed zone. Sorry, I think people need to be able to act and make their own decisions within the defined rules of the game and if you don't know - you should. The drivers test doesn't tell you what the speed limit is - it tells ou to read the signs and govern youself accordingly or suffer the penalty.
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Post by wade on Mar 10, 2012 19:48:44 GMT -5
Ha! Vehicles are NOT equipped with the ability to ensure operators know & comply to applicable law or even common-sense...and what happens?
Loss of life. Tragic, gruesome and heart-crushing death of innocent people. Every day. And those who drive within the rules don't get a trophy when they safely reach their destination without any bodies stuck in the grill.
So...your analogy sucks...In my opinion.
In regards to hockey...the consequences are less dramatic (thank god)...but...nobody wants to see this bureaucratic chess match transpire. Its cheesy, its lame and its needless. Its also destroying the credibility of Allan Cup hockey.
At the very least...I would think its possible to impliment a pre-check which only penalizes a team with misconduct(s) penalties to ineligible players listed on a gamesheet which has been signed by the Coach and the GM and is then deemed to be in breach prior to game start(s).
This way, A team still has to have hands on knowledge/experience of the rules...but...we can have a hockey game and know...with way more certainty than right now....the outcome is the outcome is the outcome. Done deal.
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hitman
Junior Member
Posts: 27
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Post by hitman on Mar 10, 2012 20:20:47 GMT -5
It hurts to admit it but Wade is right. Why can't there be someone from Alberta Hockey there? Pull out a laptop take 5 minutes and deem everything is okay or not okay. Horse Lake would Start the game 2 men down. One in the box, the other out of the game.
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Post by hockeypops on Mar 10, 2012 20:45:10 GMT -5
Ha! Vehicles are NOT equipped with the ability to ensure operators know & comply to applicable law or even common-sense...and what happens? Loss of life. Tragic, gruesome and heart-crushing death of innocent people. Every day. And those who drive within the rules don't get a trophy when they safely reach their destination without any bodies stuck in the grill. So...your analogy sucks...In my opinion. In regards to hockey...the consequences are less dramatic (thank god)...but...nobody wants to see this bureaucratic chess match transpire. Its cheesy, its lame and its needless. Its also destroying the credibility of Allan Cup hockey. At the very least...I would think its possible to impliment a pre-check which only penalizes a team with misconduct(s) penalties to ineligible players listed on a gamesheet which has been signed by the Coach and the GM and is then deemed to be in breach prior to game start(s). This way, A team still has to have hands on knowledge/experience of the rules...but...we can have a hockey game and know...with way more certainty than right now....the outcome is the outcome is the outcome. Done deal. If my analogy sucks that would be your opinion and I have mine. The point is you can not legislate compliance to the rules and trying to do a pregame check of every player is a tedious task at best. In addition, every senior player in Alberta is in the HC database by team and that includes APs and the designations for imports so I stand by my position that the Coaches have very few rules to know for compliance and they need to know them at this level and they need to know each players status. Beyond that, for the most part all Coaches either fill out the HCR or have access to it. Before playing a single game against Fort Sask or Bentley, the HL current roster was provided to each team and I'm confident the same was done for HL. Lastly, for the few times in Alberta, the rule is broken any effort spent spent in pre-game compliance checking is a wasted effort. I don't have stats but I would guess it's a handfull out of the hundreds played. The Chinook League had some from LBK, a Sask team, a situation that is being addressed I understand. Yes the infraction was, I'm sure. an oversight by HL, that was caught and could only have been caused by an import AP as the HCR doesn't allow you to register 7 regularly carded players as AP's to your team, I have been told. So now we're down to trying to regulate something that is regulated and splitting hairs that it's OK for a coach or GM to know nothing. If , as a coach / GM you don't know the rules or a players status - you pay the price. If you want to deal with the Sask issue, good luck as Sask Hockey plays so fast and loose with regulating Senior Hockey teams that no team acrually knows the real status of any player until Feb 10th so how do you pre-game check compliance? Tell HC they need to force registration rules on the Provincial bodies? Good luck with that! It just flows from one can of worms to another so when all else fails, it is ultimately the Coach / GM who knows every players real status and that's where the buck needs to stop!!
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Post by wade on Mar 10, 2012 21:05:59 GMT -5
I think what needs to be kept in mind is its not just Horse Lake who suffers with a ruling such as todays.
We all suffer.
All of the Allan Cup fraternity has a face full of egg here. This stuff doesn't happen at other levels. Or, at the very least, far less at other levels.
And when it happens...any interested party or participant takes a step back and questions what it is they're involved with. Some of these participants will end choosing to disconintue involvement.
Furthermore...even if it happens only once in a blue moom...thats still too often.
What if it was game seven of the series? Or the Allan Cup Final?
And it wouldn't be "tedious". Come on, pops. Tedious would be the research & the double checking which went on late into last night to determine the flaw, the ruling and the subsequent verdict!
Proactive would be something to prevent all that rhetoric. Not tedious. Not at all.
As a devoted fan of this level of hockey...I feel personally duped & wronged whenever this BS happens. Like I alluded to, I begin to question the point of following Allan Cup hockey. And I'm glad I didn't waste my time & money going to Stony Plain to watch "the game that never happened".
I also wonder if maybe 'hockeypops' isn't taking this in a bit of a selfish light? I know his Admirals had signed Darren Reid earlier in the year only to lose him to Horse Lake under shady circumstance. Maybe, 'hockeypops', your thinking is this is some sort of karmic whiplash coming back to punish a team which nabbed a player who was property of your roster a few months ago?
I can understand if thats the case.
To be honest...there is a part of me feeling as though..." it couldn't happen to a nicer guy..." as well.
But at the same time...I am also not so naive as to forget that it COULD someday happen to the Bentley Generals just the same as it COULD happen to the Admirals.
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Post by hockeypops on Mar 10, 2012 21:17:13 GMT -5
I think what needs to be kept in mind is its not just Horse Lake who suffers with a ruling such as todays. We all suffer. All of the Allan Cup fraternity has a face full of egg here. This stuff doesn't happen at other levels. Or, at the very least, far less at other levels. And when it happens...any interested party or participant takes a step back and questions what it is they're involved with. Some of these participants will end choosing to disconintue involvement. Furthermore...even if it happens only once in a blue moom...thats still too often. What if it was game seven of the series? Or the Allan Cup Final? And it wouldn't be "tedious". Come on, pops. Tedious would be the research & the double checking which went on late into last night to determine the flaw, the ruling and the subsequent verdict! Proactive would be something to prevent all that rhetoric. Not tedious. Not at all. As a devoted fan of this level of hockey...I feel personally duped & wronged whenever this BS happens. Like I alluded to, I begin to question the point of following Allan Cup hockey. And I'm glad I didn't waste my time & money going to Stony Plain to watch "the game that never happened". I also wonder if maybe 'hockeypops' isn't taking this in a bit of a selfish light? I know his Admirals had signed Darren Reid earlier in the year only to lose him to Horse Lake under shady circumstance. Maybe, 'hockeypops', your thinking is this is some sort of karmic whiplash coming back to punish a team which nabbed a player who was property of your roster a few months ago? I can understand if thats the case. To be honest...there is a part of me feeling as though..." it couldn't happen to a nicer guy..." as well. But at the same time...I am also not so naive as to forget that it COULD someday happen to the Bentley Generals just the same as it COULD happen to the Admirals. I hadn't thought of karma but now that you mention it However, having been involved in hockey for many years and having been at the giving and receiving end of the punishment scale, I have always felt that team officials ultimately need to be accountable for their actions and a mistaken roster, caught in time, has always had the same outcome - game decision reversal. Of course. let's not be naive enough to think Stony Plain would have even given the roster a second glance IF THEY HAD WON.
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Post by wade on Mar 10, 2012 22:00:08 GMT -5
Just because "its always been this way" doesn't mean it can't be improved in the future.
Bottom line is its become an epidemic & its going to keep happening. If you can't see that or you refuse to see it...thats your perogative.
Sure, Horse Lake has to be held accountable.
I have made the point I wanted to make in regards to how it could/should be prevented.
Onto the next fiasco.
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