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Post by proview on Mar 11, 2012 0:20:56 GMT -5
Wade we dont often agree but you are bang on . YES HL made a mistake, but they did fill out the score sheet first, then stoney ,then the refs check it over , no one complained then so why wait till the game is over , its chicken somthing. There should be a penalty to start the game for incorctly filling out the game sheet and the player is done for the game , thats pretty tough , but to rule after the game when stoney add no problem with it before the game then to bad for them .
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Post by Doug Mathieson on Mar 11, 2012 0:25:11 GMT -5
Posted the forfeited game as a 1-0 Stony Plain win I believe this is the correct procedure Will leave it until i hear different
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Post by hockeypops on Mar 11, 2012 0:36:28 GMT -5
Wade we dont often agree but you are bang on . YES HL made a mistake, but they did fill out the score sheet first, then stoney ,then the refs check it over , no one complained then so why wait till the game is over , its chicken somthing. There should be a penalty to start the game for incorctly filling out the game sheet and the player is done for the game , thats pretty tough , but to rule after the game when stoney add no problem with it before the game then to bad for them . The referees do not check the roster for anything except the correct number of players and have at this time, no access to any player information and before a game I don't know of a single Coach or GM who has the time to check a roster sheet player by player prior to a game starting. Many times the visiting team turns in the game sheet to the home team mere minutes before game time. However in defense of Stony, what a forensic audit of a game sheet to discover too many imports. I suspect somebody said something for them to start digging that deep.
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Post by wade on Mar 11, 2012 0:47:55 GMT -5
Wade we dont often agree but you are bang on . YES HL made a mistake, but they did fill out the score sheet first, then stoney ,then the refs check it over , no one complained then so why wait till the game is over , its chicken somthing. There should be a penalty to start the game for incorctly filling out the game sheet and the player is done for the game , thats pretty tough , but to rule after the game when stoney add no problem with it before the game then to bad for them . The referees do not check the roster for anything except the correct number of players and have at this time, no access to any player information and before a game I don't know of a single Coach or GM who has the time to check a roster sheet player by player prior to a game starting. Many times the visiting team turns in the game sheet to the home team mere minutes before game time. However in defense of Stony, what a forensic audit of a game sheet to discover too many imports. I suspect somebody said something for them to start digging that deep. This isn't the Eagles first BBQ. I would expect nothing less from them than to hunt for any edge they can gain without any prodding or hot tips required.
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Post by hockeypops on Mar 11, 2012 2:56:29 GMT -5
After several cross checks it seems the addition of Ben Boudreau, by HL, kicked them over the top for imports. His Canadian registration was last held in Ontario before going South to play pro. He was a late Feb 10 addition and until Fridays game had not seen action as far as I can tell. Although 2 or 3 line up changes occured, Andrew Derton, an import, was dropped from Saturdays roster after having been in Friday with Boudreau. Boudreau wears 39 which was previously on the back of Calvin Waquan who saw action in the 3 Fort Sask games and in game 3 against Bentley. It is apparent that as Kip Knoble and others became available Mr. Waquans services were no longer needed.
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Post by munzie on Mar 11, 2012 3:52:47 GMT -5
Sorry for returning here late in the discussion but for whatever reason my attempted reply contribution earlier this evening, seems to have gone to cyberspace somehow. Therefore, some comments now.
Wade, I imagine you understand where I was attempting to go with my reply #19 to jimc at the start of this discussion.
As has been stated the offending team (HL) has to be held accountable in this case, assuming of course that all these reports are even true and that the offending team had whatever opportunity is/was afforded to them under the rules to explain themselves.
I must admit that a couple of yeas ago when Fort Frances of Northern Ontario ran into an illegal player problem at their area play-downs, I rightly or wrongly felt sympathy for them. It was their first year in, and their position was that they thought by having been asked to pre-submit their roster, that meant the governing body had approved all players on it. Subsequently they discovered that was not the case. Although I sympathized, the rules called for the game result to be overturned and it cost them a chance to complete those play-downs. A hard lesson to swallow but I believe the correct call under the rules of the day.
I could go on about how well or not new entrants are received. A year later at the Allan Cup in Kenora, the Fort Frances manager told me that when he attended the pre-tournament meeting, the only person in the entire room to even acknowledge his presence and offer any help, was Don Robertson, manager of Dundas. As the freshman manager from Fort Frances in a totally new experience he expressed to me his gratitude for the one person who gave him the time of day, but was disappointed by the lack of reception by the others present, including the governing body representatives. I was not present of course, so I don't even know if that is accurate and I do not specialize in spreading gossip. I can only repeat what I was openly told at the time, and I do so in good faith in case it has any worthwhile relevance to this subject.
The other side of the coin I suppose, would be that it's all adults involved and that it's the responsibility of each one to understand what they are into.
One thing is for sure. There are many real life examples out there, where the rules, guidelines, laws & bylaws etc., are laid down in writing to be followed. In many cases, despite that you might make a submission it is still deemed that in the end the user is ultimately the one who bares the responsibility to comply.
In the case of our discussion of course I agree that it would be nice if something could be reasonably improved so that any non compliance could be flushed out beforehand, but thinking that it's reasonable to implement under the circumstances is not necessarily a given. All kinds of questions arise. Sure, it is nice to suggested they have someone qualified from the league to be at the rink before every game to screen for player eligibility. Perhaps there is a case for someone at each game qualified to monitor on ice incidents, arena compliance, required needs of the visiting team and so on, and who pays for these items. The teams? The league? The governing body? Just obvious questions to be considered. Senior hockey is not exactly a money generating machine.
It's always nice to want the governing body to take responsibility for everything, but how does a damaged team seek redress when the body is at fault and the offending team no longer bares responsibility.
I do have to respectfully question the idea of simply assessing a misconduct penalty(s) for attempting to play an illegal player. I question what deterrent that would be for a team to knowingly attempt, or be any incentive for a unknowing team, to educate themselves as to the rules. Maybe an adequate penalty for failing to properly fill out the game sheet or the like, but hardly adequate or appropriate for an illegal player attempt.
Another thought might be to scale back the date for all the annual roster cut downs and changes. For example instead of close to playoff time, make it Jan.1st, leaving plenty of time for a governing body to fully approve all names before the playoffs begin. But that would have it's problems too. The infamous case in Ontario that ruined jimc's life was in regular league play and resulted in that team not making the playoffs. Also, some of these new add-on players that so many of us seem to want to see, might not want to commit for the extra time period, or some teams might not be able to afford the extra travel allowance money (wink, wink) and then some of us would be disappointed. Add to that all the entering and exiting of affiliate player and carded players, seemingly ever changing and often at the last minute, and there are more questions to be answered.
In conclusion, if any of the above makes it sound like I'm not in favor of reasonable and significant improvement, nothing could be further from the truth. So far, I would personally still lean towards team accountability, but I would gladly change my mind if something could be put in place that would be reasonable to implement and would be a better way to operate.
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Post by wade on Mar 11, 2012 10:02:46 GMT -5
munzie, I know the situation your hinting at with your first post but can't recall entire/exact detail. I remember Cambridge Hornets having a player (name?) registered with a card which was found fraudulent. And it was something to do with the address on the card.
I respect the question(s) which you have. I think my pipe dream has been recurring for long enough already, I can provide decent & doable solutions to all of them.
But before I begin to answer those question, I want to clear up something which 'hockeypops' may have mis-informed the readers with: The incident in Stony this weekend in NOT an isolated roster/carding contreversy in Alberta. A few years ago, River Cree & Fort Sask got tangled up over who actually owned the rights to Blair Manning. The resulting confusion led to some GP's being wiped out for Fort Sask.
So, by my count, here in the Chinook League.... where we have as much or more experienced management than anywhere else in Canada: Fort Sask, Stony, LBK and River Cree (now defunct) having been involved with rulings regarding the topic at hand. Thats just off the top of my head & keeping in mind all the communication which happens behind the scene when teams willingly request assistance from SR Counsel trying to gain clarity/confirmation on such issue(s). Suffice to say its a problem worth looking at.
Now to answer munzie's questions:
SR Counsel is already present at as many games as possible...but...they can't be in two places at once & they can't make rulings as fast as a computer can. Really, the only route to go is to input gamesheets into an online software program the same way were already doing for the 25 man roster & affiliation allotments.
Thats the heart of my solution.
As for expenses? Let me say there shouldn't be ANY additional fee(s) over & above what SR AAA are already paying. The only obvious cost(s) would be the installation of inter-net service to the rink or, at the very least, access to the inter-net via a mobile device. And thats minor these days. You can buy toasters with inter-net these days! Frick...you can buy flying toasters that butter the bread, serve good morning porn and walk your dog these days!
The golden door would be designing an all-encompassing, live-thinking, cross referencing, ultra-taut system. Sounds complicated, I know. But take solace knowing much of the data is already in place (accuratley) within Hockey Canadas' registration system. The system I envision would only be supplemental and not unlike the concept YOU track in the Allan Cup Hockey League via "Pointstreak.com".
It wouldn't JUST be intended to use for registration purposes. Live scoring and all the bells & whistles that come with having a gamesheet entered online can also be born out of this enterprise.
As for the actual penalties when a gamesheet is not correct...Game Misconducts, Fines, Minor PIMS, two or three strike policies...its all an option. Semantics, really. The idea is to eliminate problems before they happen here. Pro-active, professional, idiot proof. Gotta have it.
And your right when you say there could be a need to move deadlines back earlier in the season. Thats' really a comment on how cumbersome and confusing the current reality has become.
I know were still a majority of ludites here in SR AAA hockey and the "old fart delegatation" will crinkle their noses at the idea of addiing still more modern day technology to the world. Many of them are still making calls on the rotary dial telephone, I suppose.
But...its time to get with the times here.
It amazes & embarasses me when something like this doesn't trigger far more urgency in the governing/leadership/fraternity.
There should be shockwaves & there is really just a ripple and a chuckle.
Goes back to the first question I asked: What are we really following here?
A legitimate operation or a fly-by-nighter?
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Post by proview on Mar 11, 2012 10:03:30 GMT -5
Wade we dont often agree but you are bang on . YES HL made a mistake, but they did fill out the score sheet first, then stoney ,then the refs check it over , no one complained then so why wait till the game is over , its chicken somthing. There should be a penalty to start the game for incorctly filling out the game sheet and the player is done for the game , thats pretty tough , but to rule after the game when stoney add no problem with it before the game then to bad for them . The referees do not check the roster for anything except the correct number of players and have at this time, no access to any player information and before a game I don't know of a single Coach or GM who has the time to check a roster sheet player by player prior to a game starting. Many times the visiting team turns in the game sheet to the home team mere minutes before game time. However in defense of Stony, what a forensic audit of a game sheet to discover too many imports. I suspect somebody said something for them to start digging that deep. I am well aware of what takes place before each game . I am saying if the home team checked it over then the refs ,who could be given the rosters from hockey alberta check it over ,any corrections or penaltys should be dealt with then. If no one had any objetions good to go . It is a provincial final ,hockey alberta could have a guy there with a phone have it checked in less then 5 min and then the game is good to go, to lose a game after is wrong . With smart phones and all the new stuff out in todays world this should never happen . To lose a game this way is wrong but to lose a provincial final game this way is a real shame , it should not happen, it does take away from all teams at this level and everyone involed with all teams at this level. Wades right this keeps happening and it should not , HL I would bet alot of money had no idea they broke this rule . Yes rules are very important when there necessary but when rules are broke that could be fixed so easily they should be.
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Post by jimc on Mar 11, 2012 14:38:52 GMT -5
What is absolute BS in this whole sad, repetitive gong show is the various organizations, especially the OHA, recognizing any card signed by a team/player as valid, only to go back at a later date and invalidate said signing with ridiculous repercussions after the fact, when some other team launches yet another cheesy protest.
If there is an issue with player eligibility, then the various leagues and organizations should be doing their due diligence from the start and notifying their member teams of any compliance issues, rather than hiding their heads in the sand and validating each card until somebody else decides they don't like player x playing for a rival.
The entire system is a pathetic joke.
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Post by sasky99 on Mar 11, 2012 14:57:18 GMT -5
Can someone please copy and paste the rule that was broken??
Is this the 6 max import rule that is....... anyone who wasn't signed on a senior card in the previous season, is considered an import (including pro, college, and junior)?
Sorry for my ignorance.
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Post by munzie on Mar 11, 2012 15:51:02 GMT -5
All good stuff and it would be great if someone was listening. Regardless of who thinks what, it should be clear that a bad situation should be made better. Wade...can you send me a private message. I'd like a lead on the flying toaster that serves good morning porn!!! Speaking of technology, It surprises me that you don't seem to be using Pointstreak out west (assuming that it is available?). As I'm sure you are aware it is a superb information tool providing live on-line complete game sheets that are updated every 3-4 minutes simply by refreshing your screen. The gamesheets are also archived with the schedule and can be viewed historically at any time. While it's nice to have members on here providing updates throughout a game, and it does bring back fond memories of sitting around the family radio listening to Foster Hewitt and waiting for the power to be restored some where far off, and eagerly anticipating who might have scored for the Bellville McFarlands, the Trail Smoke Eaters, or the Whitby Dunlops....but I digress. It also is a great to study when you get home from a game. Just when you have discussed with your buddies that some player didn't do much on a given night, you go home and find out he only had three goals and two assists, and all of a sudden your are an expert at what you failed to see. Just wondering why it doesn't seem to be employed out your way and wonder if you can shed any light. Thanks (as almost always!) Munzie
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Post by hockeypops on Mar 11, 2012 16:09:27 GMT -5
Can someone please copy and paste the rule that was broken?? Is this the 6 max import rule that is....... anyone who wasn't signed on a senior card in the previous season, is considered an import (including pro, college, and junior)? Sorry for my ignorance. The import rule is defined by where the player was last carded in Canada. So for instance Kris Westblom was born and played in the Meadow Lake area but was last carded in Canada at college in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, he then went on to play minor pro in the US. In Canada, Hockey Canada ignores anything a player does across the border so Westblom is an import to a Sask team because he was last carded in Canada outside of Sask. He is only an import for one year then all subsequent years in Sask are as a non-import. For Lloydminster it sometimes gets more confusing because local Sask boys play Jr. A in Lloydminster but the Bobcats belong to the AJHL making all players carded Alberta players. When they go home to play on the local Senior team, they are considered an import for the first year. So the import status of a Canadian player is determined by where that player was last carded in Canada, with no consideration for where they were born or where they played outside of Canada.
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Post by wade on Mar 11, 2012 16:23:27 GMT -5
sasky: The short is answer to your question: Yes, it was an import rule related issue.
munzie: The short answer to your question: The reason the Chinook League & Alberta SR AAA teams don't provide real time scoring on their website is the lack of internet in most of the venues being used. Its something they could look at, Im sure.
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Post by munzie on Mar 11, 2012 16:48:44 GMT -5
sasky: The short is answer to your question: Yes, it was an import rule related issue. munzie: The short answer to your question: The reason the Chinook League & Alberta SR AAA teams don't provide real time scoring on their website is the lack of internet in most of the venues being used. Its something they could look at, Im sure. Thanks Wade. Holy crap! I'm not trying to be a smart ass. Maybe that's why were going broke here in Ontario, but gees, tell them to sell a couple extra barrels of oil and get it done. what the heck does the arena management and staff use? An Underwood typewriter? O.K. I'm out of here. Hockey game tonight!
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Post by Doug Mathieson on Mar 11, 2012 21:41:57 GMT -5
Hockey Alberta has informed me that the 4-1 score remains since the game is not actually a forfeit , so all the stats will count with the exception of the win being moved to the Stony Plain goalie. With the use of the illegal player just the two points for the win goes to Stony Plain
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