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Post by thelionsden on Nov 21, 2011 19:01:38 GMT -5
IF and on IF (WE) the NEWFOUNDLAND team cards 19 ADDITIONAL players...what make you think we will bring all those players....I will go out on a limb and say you will see a maximum of 25 players at the AC from the Atlantic Canada Reps. including goaltenders. And i would also suspect that the current Atlantic reps will add maybe and i say maybe 3-4 players.... if all current players are able to attend...IE work, school and family situations.
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Post by thelionsden on Nov 21, 2011 19:03:31 GMT -5
if i'm not mistaken......and this is off topic here...but did the Bentley generals want to come to Newfoundland for some exibition games? What was the reason for wanting to come all the way here for Exibition?
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Post by proview on Nov 21, 2011 19:20:27 GMT -5
Lionsden the point is the rules should be the same from one side of the country to the other side . The date if your triple AAA should be the same for everyone, and if your in a triple AAA league ,your champ goes not a team that has planned 1 full year ahead. I also agree with wade that 19 extra players to pick from is the worst thought out plan ever for senior hockey . I belive each team got there ,thats what you go with not adding players from where ever, sooner then latter this rule is going to be abused very badly . I know each province has rules but its time evryone played by the same. As for powel river ,it sure sounds as if everyone on here has the same thoughts on what they do and wonder why it happens , with no explantions from there team or BC hockey.
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Post by hockeypops on Nov 21, 2011 19:28:58 GMT -5
IF and on IF (WE) the NEWFOUNDLAND team cards 19 ADDITIONAL players...what make you think we will bring all those players....I will go out on a limb and say you will see a maximum of 25 players at the AC from the Atlantic Canada Reps. including goaltenders. And i would also suspect that the current Atlantic reps will add maybe and i say maybe 3-4 players.... if all current players are able to attend...IE work, school and family situations. In all this discussion let me see if I have it right. You, as a team from Nfld play in a AA league but if by chance you win the Herder Cup in a AA league you have the right to declare yourself AAA a year before the AC you play in. Is that right? And if you play as a AAA team the following year you again get to compete in a AA league and if you win you have the right to declare yourself AAA for the following AC. Is that right? And if you win the Herder Cup and decide not to go to the Allan Cup because you think it's to expensive is there a Provincial money pot in the background that pays the extra so Nfld is represented? Remember each team supposedly raises its' own money and makes its' own decisions so who says the Herder Cup Champion has to go? What then?
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hitman
Junior Member
Posts: 27
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Post by hitman on Nov 22, 2011 0:22:44 GMT -5
I don't know about money.But I do know that whoever wins the herder cup gets to be AAA. I have never seen this piece of paper from NFLD saying they need an extra year. I do however know that they came to a decision as a league to make it unchallenged so they could raise the money. Know you may say that is bogus or stupid or whatever, I say its smart. Because they do play in a 'AA' league.
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Post by hockeypops on Nov 22, 2011 3:35:26 GMT -5
I don't know about money.But I do know that whoever wins the herder cup gets to be AAA. I have never seen this piece of paper from NFLD saying they need an extra year. I do however know that they came to a decision as a league to make it unchallenged so they could raise the money. Know you may say that is bogus or stupid or whatever, I say its smart. Because they do play in a 'AA' league. Smart how? What's smart about it? Because they found a way to get special rules to suit them? That's neither smart or fair to the REAL AAA teams who play at a AAA level all season long and when they win are faced with the financial burden of attending an AC no matter where it's held - no planniong a year in advance or whatever just plain and simple finding a way to do it. Are you now suggesting that there is something special about Nfld attending that they need special rules? What a croc of bull!!! Stop whining and snivelling and step to the plate or do what you've done before - don't come - but if you want to come, live by the rules the rest of Canada has been under for close to 100 years.
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bds
Junior Member
Posts: 47
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Post by bds on Nov 22, 2011 9:17:13 GMT -5
Im not sure what your beef is here Wade, are you upset that NL doesnt have to play any of the Atlantic provinces(No registered AAA teams) or that the current Herder winner doesnt attend the Allan Cup?
The Herder playdowns occur 2 weeks before the allan cup so it would be very difficult to coordinate a trip of this magnitude in that time frame. Especially when only 2 of the 5 teams are AAA. What if one of the other 3 teams win? Then who attends?
I am not saying i dont agree with your points im just trying to see if from the eyes of the team managers here.
I think the concern would be pulling this off in a 2 week time frame. We are on an island here and that poses its own challanges.
It would be very interesting to try and book airline tickets first off the island and then across the country with 2 weeks notice for the 25 players that will attend and then you have the staff as well. You would never pull it off.
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Post by tender33 on Nov 22, 2011 11:33:03 GMT -5
"It would be very interesting to try and book airline tickets first off the island and then across the country with 2 weeks notice for the 25 players that will attend and then you have the staff as well. You would never pull it off." Seems to me that in 2007 when the Allan Cup was in Stoney Plain the Quebec playoffs ended on a friday night and the Allan Cup began on the following monday. They had no problems booking flights and getting their players to the tournament, so it CAN be done!! Read more: allancup.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=allancup&action=display&thread=129&page=5#ixzz1eS73fZDk
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Post by munzie on Nov 22, 2011 11:35:23 GMT -5
Im not sure what your beef is here Wade, are you upset that NL doesnt have to play any of the Atlantic provinces(No registered AAA teams) or that the current Herder winner doesnt attend the Allan Cup? The Herder playdowns occur 2 weeks before the allan cup so it would be very difficult to coordinate a trip of this magnitude in that time frame. Especially when only 2 of the 5 teams are AAA. What if one of the other 3 teams win? Then who attends? I am not saying i don't agree with your points im just trying to see if from the eyes of the team managers here. I think the concern would be pulling this off in a 2 week time frame. We are on an island here and that poses its own challanges. It would be very interesting to try and book airline tickets first off the island and then across the country with 2 weeks notice for the 25 players that will attend and then you have the staff as well. You would never pull it off. I'm not wade, and I'm kind of on the run, but I wouldn't be too quick use travel arrangements as a roadblock. When you know that at least "some" team will be going, you can pre-book the space. I'm not suggesting it's just simple, simple, simple, but there are ways to do things with the combined help of all parties concerned. I not at all suggesting it's a piece of cake getting off the Rock, but that applies for lots of flights these days. They keep them tight intentionally, but if you have the passenger numbers of a significant group, you might be suprized how they can come up with a larger size plane to accomodate. Again not to make it sound so simple, but for example if you would like to leave this Thursday (just two days notice), you can depart St.John's at 5:00 am direct to Toronto with 30 open seats on the existing scheduled plane. Or if you would like to leave a little later you can leave at 6:50 am to Toronto with a quick stop at Ottawa, 34 open seats on that one. Haven't had time to check other airport departures, and again I'm not saying it's a slam dunk. Sorry, gotta run right now.
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Post by hockeypops on Nov 22, 2011 12:01:18 GMT -5
Im not sure what your beef is here Wade, are you upset that NL doesnt have to play any of the Atlantic provinces(No registered AAA teams) or that the current Herder winner doesnt attend the Allan Cup? The Herder playdowns occur 2 weeks before the allan cup so it would be very difficult to coordinate a trip of this magnitude in that time frame. Especially when only 2 of the 5 teams are AAA. What if one of the other 3 teams win? Then who attends? I am not saying i don't agree with your points I'm just trying to see if from the eyes of the team managers here. I think the concern would be pulling this off in a 2 week time frame. We are on an island here and that poses its own challanges. It would be very interesting to try and book airline tickets first off the island and then across the country with 2 weeks notice for the 25 players that will attend and then you have the staff as well. You would never pull it off. I am not Wade but my beef is if 2 of the 5 teams are AAA then those two teams should have a playoff that has nothing to do with your Herder Cup. In Alberta we play a Provincial AAA Championship that has nothing to do with AA teams even though some AAA teams play in a AA league and a couple of AA teams play in a AAA league. The two AA teams do not participate in our AAA provincials but have their own playoff and the winner moves on to the AA Provincial Championship. After the AAA Championship, we then play the McKenzie Cup between Alta and BC and have one week to get arrangements and travel for the wining team. As we have done here, if time is a problem, shorten your season to give yourself 3 weeks lead time, pre book blocks of seats to be used by the winning team, it might surprise you how easy that is. But if only 2 teams are AAA what happens when a AA team wins the Herder Cup? You don't come the following year or you get to use the Magic Marker on your team and call it AAA?
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Post by wade on Nov 22, 2011 15:47:46 GMT -5
if i'm not mistaken......and this is off topic here...but did the Bentley generals want to come to Newfoundland for some exibition games? What was the reason for wanting to come all the way here for Exibition? Sounds like you got some bad information. Any-hoo...a few counter-points to the post(s)... - I realize there is very little chance of anyone ever actually using all 19 AP allotments and thats not the central issue. I am critisizing Hockey Canada for the principal & pointless-ness of the rule. If nobody is ever going to use 19 allotments...then what was the point of "19" in the first place??? Thats one of many questions I have about the new affiliation rule. - Secondly....The McKenzie Cup runs the first week of April. Its typically completed around the 5th or 6th...and the AC Tournament opens up sometimes as early as the following weekend. Never more than 2 weeks. I believe the timeline(s) are often similar with other qualifications as well. And Ive said all of this a few times already...so...gentlemen, please....with all due respect.... read the posts carefully as this discussion is already polished well past crystal clear and quite frankly....only an inept jury should need any further deliberation. But again...the core of any issue(s) I have ever taken with any rule(s)...is always the same....The rules gotta be the same for everyone. No exceptions. Ever. The deal afforded to GFW & Clarenville is steeply weighted to their distinct advantadge both on & off the ice. They, literally, get an entire calender year...not a hockey season...a calender year...to recruit & add players to what was already a Herder Cup winner...using the allure of an AC berth as extra incentive for top players to consider. Plus, they know they can affiliate any other player in the branch because they''re granted exclusive status as the ONLY 'AAA' team in the province. This essentially creates an opportunity to build an All Star team from out of 2 SR Leagues in Newfoundland (which are temporarily amalgamated as one league but thats semantics, really) Plus, plus...they don't have to win to get in. They can play at criuse control if they so choose....saving their bodies from injury/fatigue and show up for the tournament having lost league playoffs but sharp and healthy all the same. Plus, plus, plus...their team executive is able to canvas for sponsorship $$$ with the same enticements they canvas players with. (Garunteed AC slot). I can go on...really all you need to do is open your mind and see a big picture...this whole thing is teeming with infinte advantadges for GFW...and Clarenville before them. Form now...lets just admit...the ONLY real reason why Newfoundland gets special treatment is because they informed Hockey Canada "THIS" the ONLY way they could be included in the tournament. And I call bullshit on that one. Like I said before...they've got as much/more operating $$$ and logistcal clout than any other SR AAA club out there. And now they've got the best bargain to go with it. Bogus.
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Post by thelionsden on Nov 22, 2011 16:20:21 GMT -5
I ask this question Wade... as i'm not sure of the anwser....But when Clarenville went to the AC the first year....was there the same arguement then... as it is now?..... or is it just because they won...Again it's just a question, as i am new to this site...and the AC.
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Post by wade on Nov 22, 2011 18:31:19 GMT -5
I ask this question Wade... as i'm not sure of the anwser....But when Clarenville went to the AC the first year....was there the same arguement then... as it is now?..... or is it just because they won...Again it's just a question, as i am new to this site...and the AC. I've always insisted the rules should be the same for everyone. Since long before 2010. Unfortunatley...most of the focus tends to be on "paid players" and "the money issue" which is something I have talked about in the past and while I still think it warrants some attention...I also think its now become a bigger discussion than it is an actual problem and whats happening is all the ambiguos/foolish rules & loopholes which we could actually have some tangible control over aren't getting talked about while everyone worries about rumors of certain teams spending money on certain players. I think player payments can be talked about until were all blue in the face...and I have been guilty of it in the past, I don't deny. But these days there are definatley other things which I want to call to attention and hopefully get it corrected ASAP. I don't have any black & white solutions on how to prevent teams from spending $$$ on players. But I do have some easy fixes for a few other problems. And its got jack shit to do with who beat the Bentley Generals. I have clarified this many times already. Just make the rules the same for everybody, give every single SR AAA team an independant vote on all future amendments & abolish the existing affiliation rule...changing it back to something closxely resembling what it was last year. Thats 3 things we need to have done right now which will protect the integrity of the game, legitimize the Championship, create more democratic governing & best of all....shut me up for a few weeks.
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Post by munzie on Nov 22, 2011 19:31:54 GMT -5
I ask this question Wade... as i'm not sure of the anwser....But when Clarenville went to the AC the first year....was there the same arguement then... as it is now?..... or is it just because they won...Again it's just a question, as i am new to this site...and the AC. liaonsden.....with the tone of your question, I'm not sure why I or anyone else is bothering to reply any further. I think it is great that you have joined in as a new poster and I absolutely do not wish to sound condescending. I think a lot of information, time and thought has been offered to you on this subject by various people. You don't need to agree with it, but asking that question which is really just another version of what has already be asked and or suggested, leads me to believe that you really do not deserve more of peoples time, mine anyway. This is only a suggestion, which I am assuming you have not done to date. If you would have taken the time as a new member, to first go back and familiarize yourself with past threads on this form, then you would probably have gained some valuable insight, and you would understand why I think the tone of your question on this particular subject is misguided and smacking of shit disturbing. Not to late to do some homework, if you choose. Sincerely, munzie
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bds
Junior Member
Posts: 47
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Post by bds on Nov 23, 2011 7:40:36 GMT -5
Im just trying to figure out the argument they are using thats obviously working. I will say that i agree 100% with Wade that all teams should have the same rules.
The Caribous last year however did NOT stack a team from the beginning for the Allan Cup. They iced the same team for the league all year and grabbed what they needed from there affiliate a week before the tourney. They had 2 practises as a team and were lucky that it all came together.
As for GFW they only replaced the players who left last year. They did not go out and stack a team with the AC as bait. Check the roster from last year if you dont believe this. The team is good enough with the players they have. Remember they took out the clarenville team in the playoffs last year and are top of the league again this year.
GFW will do the same this year, replace injuries and take a few players to deal with injuries from the tournment. They will have the same lines as they use all year.
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