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Post by mlh01 on May 1, 2014 18:01:14 GMT -5
Was talking to a former hockey scout. He said he has been to the last 10-11 Allan Cups.
He mentioned that it's his belief that the 2014 Dundas team is the strongest he had seen at this level.
All 20 players on the ice are former pros. 15-16 have played NHL and AHL (not semi pro) while the remaining have ECHL experience. Every player a former pro!
The only team that he said came close was St Georges in the early 2000's (who essentially were semi pro) but said even they didn't have the McCoys firepower.
Was great hearing that. They sure we're a talented team! And built to play hard in that arena....just ask the poor Bentley player that the monster 6'6" Matthew Smith rocked...will never forget that hit. He also commented on that and said he thought it turned the tournament around (as much as one hit can).
He said that Bentley usually plays that style. They hit hard, aren't usually the most talented, but take it to the other team. Dundas played their game and were just a better team.
Lastly, he mentioned that the last time the field was this strong was in 2008. Ontario teams play on an even playing field when at home because generally their ex pros don't travel well - ie the McCoys were short benched for at least a few games that I can remember.
Anyway, I've watched the last 6-7 Cups online and tend to agree. I haven't seen as strong a team as them.
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Post by AFAN on May 1, 2014 19:42:37 GMT -5
THEY NO DOUBT WERE THE STRONGEST TEAM IN THE LAST WHILE. ALL FORMER PROS! I GUESS THATS WHAT IT IS BUT I STILL WOULD RATHER SEE A MAX # SET FOR FORMER PROS PER TEAM TO KEEP IT AMATEUR HOCKEY SOMEWHAT. HOW MANY WERE EX NHL GUYS?
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Post by Doug Mathieson on May 1, 2014 20:37:09 GMT -5
Dundas was good but I dont think they could have beat the 2004 St Georges Garaga
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Post by mlh01 on May 1, 2014 20:38:51 GMT -5
There were 7 ex-NHL players. I respect your opinion, and love any debate, especially about Senior hockey. But, I do not agree with your comment about ex pros.
Senior hockey is about finding the absolute best players you can find that are over the age of 20.
We have looked for ways to promote Senior hockey on this board, through many other threads...and it's hard enough as it is now...nevermind limiting who can and cannot play.
Plus, the definition of "Amateur" has changed drastically....professional players/athletes can now compete in the Olympiics...which is, or once was, the WORLD's biggest amateur sporting event.
Lastly, once you are finished playing professional hockey....you ARE an amateur.
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Post by Allan Cup Ontario on May 1, 2014 20:54:15 GMT -5
Dundas was good but I dont think they could have beat the 2004 St Georges Garaga Yes they were good. But they "were" a pro team. All their players were paid. Many were flown in for the weekend. And they played in the Quebec Semi-Pro Hockey League. I always wondered about those few years when they were in the Cup. Always thought Hockey Canada should have drawn the line. Playing former pros is different than playing against current pros. Doug - if the rumours are true, and Quebec enters a team will it come from the current Quebec North American Hockey League? If so and correct me if I'm wrong but is that not a Semi pro league as well? Think St Georges now competes in that league?
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Post by Doug Mathieson on May 1, 2014 21:56:08 GMT -5
Dundas was good but I dont think they could have beat the 2004 St Georges Garaga Yes they were good. But they "were" a pro team. All their players were paid. Many were flown in for the weekend. And they played in the Quebec Semi-Pro Hockey League. I always wondered about those few years when they were in the Cup. Always thought Hockey Canada should have drawn the line. Playing former pros is different than playing against current pros. Doug - if the rumours are true, and Quebec enters a team will it come from the current Quebec North American Hockey League? If so and correct me if I'm wrong but is that not a Semi pro league as well? Think St Georges now competes in that league? the former Quebec Semi Pro league which was amateur despite the name ( which is why the Garaga could competer for the Allan Cup) The NAHL is a pro league and they would be ineligible There are Double AA teams in Quebec that could register as AAA and be competitive Rumour has it that the Garaga outbid the New York Rangers for an AHL player that they wanted to send to Binhampton
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Post by wade on May 1, 2014 23:00:28 GMT -5
I'll take the 2013 Generals against 2004 Garaga for sure. I would be confident with that team against the 2014 Dundas squad as well.
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dexterbaggs@hotmail.com
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Post by dexterbaggs@hotmail.com on May 2, 2014 14:40:47 GMT -5
And no word on the team that took them to overtime . when you are playing in overtime it can be any ones game.. The team that went unbeaten the last two years but lost out in the final games
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Post by ac on May 2, 2014 14:51:45 GMT -5
And no word on the team that took them to overtime . when you are playing in overtime it can be any ones game.. The team that went unbeaten the last two years but lost out in the final games We won't go there. I think there is a 16 page thread on the Nfld team. They are a very good team, but they had 9 players who don't play for Clarenville during the year. They had players from 3 other teams. Dundas and Bentley only use their true club team. Nfld obviously does need a few AP's as they don't have the population base or ex-pros that Ontario offers...but when half the team is AP's....its not a real team. 3 AP's would suffice in my opinion. I've been to 4 Allen Cups. Dundas is the biggest and most talented team I've seen in any of them. Goaltending was a concern going in but Mole turned out to be the best 'tender in the tourny.
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Post by Western Guy on May 2, 2014 19:56:25 GMT -5
Not to throw gasoline on the fire but are there all Ostriches in the room with heads in the sand. Are we all assuming that 16 exNHL pro's showed up "FREE" and unpaid. I'm not referring to sticks and equipment or gas money, but real dollars. (Just sayin')
Yes an exPro is an Amateur if he plays unpaid, as is any player, but even a guy who never played above minor hockey is an Amateur "Until he gets paid" at any level, including Senior. No doubt that an AC in Ontario is a strong draw for Ex Pros who still want a National Championship to talk about. Isn't it interesting how they (ex Pro's) only show up when it's convenient!! As far as AP's, it's in the rules and until it changes, it is what it is, including the convoluted mess in Nfld. One possible solution, which was talked about and shot down by the majority of the Provincial Senior Reps was a 30 man roster and no AP's. Seems interesting how teams say they need AP's because they can't always get their limited roster of players to show at game day because of work or family situations but Provincial Senior Reps have a different agenda. Equally as interesting is how players choose to play AA Hockey but are first in line to affiliate at the AAA level. Maybe we should say to both players and teams "Your in or your out - make up your mind."
I have no problem with a AAA team playing in a AA league and then stepping to the AAA playoffs, that's happened plenty with Fort St John and Horse Lake. I do know that the AC Hockey League in Ontario and the Chinook League have basically become the Provincial AAA League because real AAA owners want to participate against other AAA teams. I would hazard a guess that teams not interested in being AAA in these two leagues don't bother to apply to play at all, but in fact, find leagues more to the level of what they want to play.
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Post by Ontario Guy on May 2, 2014 20:45:01 GMT -5
Not to throw gasoline on the fire but are there all Ostriches in the room with heads in the sand. Are we all assuming that 16 exNHL pro's showed up "FREE" and unpaid. I'm not referring to sticks and equipment or gas money, but real dollars. (Just sayin')
Western guy, when you question about 16 exNHL pro's showing up "FREE" and unpaid. (or not), can clarify. Are you refering to a particular team and if so which one. (Just asking)
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dexterbaggs@hotmail.com
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Post by dexterbaggs@hotmail.com on May 3, 2014 5:30:14 GMT -5
And no word on the team that took them to overtime . when you are playing in overtime it can be any ones game.. The team that went unbeaten the last two years but lost out in the final games We won't go there. I think there is a 16 page thread on the Nfld team. They are a very good team, but they had 9 players who don't play for Clarenville during the year. They had players from 3 other teams. Dundas and Bentley only use their true club team. Nfld obviously does need a few AP's as they don't have the population base or ex-pros that Ontario offers...but when half the team is AP's....its not a real team. 3 AP's would suffice in my opinion. I've been to 4 Allen Cups. Dundas is the biggest and most talented team I've seen in any of them. Goaltending was a concern going in but Mole turned out to be the best 'tender in the tourney Just wondering , did all of the players that Dundas had play most of their games in their league last year . How many regular season games do they have to play in order to play in the playoffs . Do the league have a draft or can they just go out and pick players random , who ever has the bucks pay a team to play at the AC ...
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Post by a on May 3, 2014 10:04:19 GMT -5
Yes most of Dundas players played many games. The difference in Ontario is pretty much every team has games where they are extremely short-staffed. I know Norwoods only had 11 skaters their last few games.
Every team was short staffed numerous times. A few years back it got so bad that Dundas had games with 8 skaters. I believe a new rule was put in that mandates 10 skaters.
It's just a fact of life - regular season in Ontario AAA is like that - you never know how many players can play.
But the difference is ALL of those players are on the team. Feb 10 is the same for everyone in Canada - you have 25 cards. But Ontario and Alberta then do not add 8-9 players who are not on their chosen team.
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Post by S on May 3, 2014 11:21:54 GMT -5
alberta teams do use APs!!! Bentley in the last couple years have chosen not to but have in the past.. If innisfail would have beaten them in there league they would have brought a full line up of APs to the Allan cup
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Post by munzie on May 3, 2014 14:52:01 GMT -5
Yes most of Dundas players played many games. The difference in Ontario is pretty much every team has games where they are extremely short-staffed. I know Norwoods only had 11 skaters their last few games. Every team was short staffed numerous times. A few years back it got so bad that Dundas had games with 8 skaters. I believe a new rule was put in that mandates 10 skaters. It's just a fact of life - regular season in Ontario AAA is like that - you never know how many players can play. But the difference is ALL of those players are on the team. Feb 10 is the same for everyone in Canada - you have 25 cards. But Ontario and Alberta then do not add 8-9 players who are not on their chosen team. To 'a', hopfully you won't mind if I attempt to refine some of the numbers slightly just for the sake of consistancy and for other readers clarity. As you have ponted out there have been some changes in recent times, all of which have been covered in detail on here several times and as recently as within the last 12 days. I'll assume that 'dexter......' perhaps missed the coverage. For the 2013-14 season the number of allowd player cards to use or lose by the Feb 10th deadline date was 28. (This was an increase from the previous 25), and not to be confussed with the preliminary cut-down date in January). ACH does not have a draft or any other inside the league farm system whereby players are stored for posible future use in a given season by a pre-selected team of the same league. If ACH ever did institute a draft for the purpose of promoting league parity, then I would certainly hope that any drafted player would have to remain with his drafting team for the entire season, and not be available in the same season to be cherry picked by the pre-selected team literally on the eve of the Allan Cup Tournament. An exclusive ACH (Ontario) league rule was also established part way through the 2012-13 season that mandated each team show up to all games with a minimum of 13 skaters + 2 goal tenders, or pay a fine to the opposing team of I believe $300. During this past 2013-14 season ACH player attendance for games showed across the board improvement over previous seasons. For example, during the regular season two teams that I tracked from start to finish, Brantford & Dundas had an average of 17.5 and 17.0 "skaters" dressed per game respectively + (goalies extra), and for the playoffs & A.C., 18.0 "skaters" for both teams. Players dressed per game for all 6 ACH teams was healthy, altough as 'a' has pointed out, Norwood who did not have a very successful season on the win column, did suffered some lower player turn out numbers later in the season of their first year back in the league, but nothing disastrous that can't be fixed for their next season with a little management tweaking. With regards to Alberta, my best observation is that the use of AB's has recently been reduced significantly, with suggestion from at least one esteemed Alberta poster that AP's should be done away with altogether. It is true however that Innisfail had a number of AP's listed on their roster and used a few of them during their playoff round against Bentley. So if 'S' is implying that he believes Inni would have brought a full line-up of AP's had they qualified for the Allan Cup, then I would be hard pressed to argue that thought based upon Sutter's history. Current rules across the country do allow it. I'm just happy that Sutter and company didn't make it, for that and other reasons which I have previously posted about. In any event, as has been well pointed out by 'Western Guy' and others, is that what might potentially take place in Alberta, is a decidedly different beast than what does takes place in Newfoundland.
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