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Post by Jing Jang on May 3, 2014 17:56:13 GMT -5
I will take the Warroad Lakers as the best team I have seen. They did what they did for 3 strait years and some big name talent there as well. I think it is a real stretch calling this Dundas team the best seen. They are a good team, but that original comment had to of been made from someone in southern Ontario. they also would of been no match for last years Bentley team.
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Post by munzie on May 3, 2014 18:30:42 GMT -5
I will take the Warroad Lakers as the best team I have seen. They did what they did for 3 strait years and some big name talent there as well. I think it is a real stretch calling this Dundas team the best seen. They are a good team, but that original comment had to of been made from someone in southern Ontario. they also would of been no match for last years Bentley team. Jing Jang, have you made your assessment from attending the Allan Cup this year to watch Dundas and last year to watch Bentley?
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Post by Senior Hockey Vet on May 3, 2014 18:35:46 GMT -5
I will take the Warroad Lakers as the best team I have seen. They did what they did for 3 strait years and some big name talent there as well. I think it is a real stretch calling this Dundas team the best seen. They are a good team, but that original comment had to of been made from someone in southern Ontario. they also would of been no match for last years Bentley team. Oh I don't know about that. The 2013 Bentley team is not much different from this year's squad. They actually added two better players than they had last year - Bailey and Weller. I would say it was simply that the other teams were much stronger in this year's Cup. I was at the Cup last year. I am confident that last year's Generals would not have made the final. Still would have been Dundas versus Clarenville.
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Post by wade on May 3, 2014 19:09:28 GMT -5
Not that much different?
5 skaters + their starting goalie all changed out.
It was surprising to find out how strong Dundas actually was this year. I've talked, personally, to a handful of people who made the trip & they all agreed Dundas was the best squad their.
The recurring theme word was, "size". Particularly among the Dundas defence. And the small rink helped Dundas to play a simple/heavy game.
I watched the final on TSN. I thought both finalists defined their strengths but neither team had the overall structure or precision of last years champions.
The field was a bit deeper this year. No question.
Keep in mind...the 2013 Champs posted shut outs against the two BEST teams in THAT field. The Army didn't actually PLAY against any of the weak links.
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Post by wade on May 3, 2014 19:14:23 GMT -5
I'll add another piece of wisdom: People counting the total amount of "former NHL players" are revealing a somewhat neophyte insight.
That's a myopic way of evaluating players & teams.
The Gens' SCRATCHED Trent Hunter in last years tournament...and he was less than a year removed from playing NHL games.
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Post by mlh01 on May 3, 2014 19:25:03 GMT -5
Some very good points wade. The 2013 Bentleys were a very strong team, although I agree with "Senior Hockey Vet" in that the two players that stood out were Weller (former NHL) and Bailey. So were they stronger or weaker with those two in the lineup??
Also agree that when the Cup is in Ontario, the Ont squads are much stronger. It only makes sense. We have 13.5 million people and most ex-pros who decide to live in Canada, post career, end up in Southern Ontario. Translates to having the strongest Senior teams in the Canada. But the caveat is...will they still play Senior and will they travel to an Allan Cup.
Lastly, as for Warroad...very good point Jing Jang. Maybe one of the strongest teams ever. But I can't compare as that predates the internet. Only someone who saw them, and also saw Dundas this year can truly compare.
My original analysis is drawn from watching each Cup since 2003 online (except for Kenora I think that had no Fast Hockey or attending. Still believe Dundas is the strongest team I've watched online or live.
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Post by wade on May 3, 2014 22:43:54 GMT -5
Not sure where the census information comes from, saying "most ex-pros live in Southern Ontario"?
Calgary is a hot bed. In fact, Dundas flew an NHL Alumni from Calgary to play for them in 2008!
Weller & Bailey are both terrific players.
But...what I am saying is...the Generals played better hockey last year.
Colliton (whom we lose to an SEL team) was as good a 2 way player as I've seen at this level. Sproat wouldn't be far behind in that regard. We also missed Vandermeer (team MVP with Innisfail) and Matt Kinch (single season points record holder among Calgary Hitmen D-Men)
And the 2013 Allan Cup MVP...Dan Bakala...who just signed with Mora SK of the SEL.
Any-Hoo...I've often pontificated these sort of questions...best all time teams, best tournaments, best AC players et al and what I've learned is...it's tricky to compare year to year.
Consider: Were trying to evaluate based on a tiny window of a short tournament where the top teams...(if things go well) need to throttle up & deliver their best hockey for a short burst and that's it.
People always talk about how this is a "tough tournament to win".
I think it's the other way around...I think...it's an easy tournament to to lose.
I've also come to the conclusion that the majority of AC winners are probably very comparable to one another. Pick almost any given year & that team is right there with any other winner over the past 10-15 years.
Lastly, host teams are always strong...but...if you want to find extra special squads...find those precious few who were able to win it without hosting.
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Post by munzie on May 4, 2014 0:07:54 GMT -5
Hey my friend, I can only respectfully say that this last day has not been one of your best.
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Post by mlh01 on May 4, 2014 8:57:19 GMT -5
Not sure where the census information comes from, saying "most ex-pros live in Southern Ontario"? Calgary is a hot bed. In fact, Dundas flew an NHL Alumni from Calgary to play for them in 2008! I wasn't going to reply to this as its so obvious with 13.5 million people. Wade, almost 50% of all Canadian NHL players are from Ontario, year after year. Alberta fluctuates between 8-12 percent...as does Que and Sask. it's been that way for decades. Lokk it up- no disrespect just the obvious facts. Also, we flew in Joel Dezainde who was the brother of our captain (Norm) who was out there working in the oil business. Only reason he flew in.
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Post by mlh01 on May 4, 2014 9:01:13 GMT -5
I wasn't going to reply to this as its so obvious with 13.5 million people.
Wade, almost 50% of all Canadian NHL players are from Ontario, year after year. Alberta fluctuates between 8-12 percent...as does Que and Sask. it's been that way for decades.
Lokk it up- no disrespect just the obvious facts.
Also, we flew in Joel Dezainde who was the brother of our captain (Norm) who was out there working in the oil business. Only reason he flew in. [/quote]
Not sure why my post created like that...above is what I responded...sorry if it reaches the board twice
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Post by Sk on May 4, 2014 10:38:52 GMT -5
You guys are right about southern Ontario with the ex pro's and population.. How come there isn't more senior AAA teams in southern Ontario? You have all those ex pro's, semi pro, college, jr players it should be fairly easy to find players
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Post by wade on May 4, 2014 11:13:14 GMT -5
You guys are right about southern Ontario with the ex pro's and population.. How come there isn't more senior AAA teams in southern Ontario? You have all those ex pro's, semi pro, college, jr players it should be fairly easy to find players The actual number he is trotting out equates to something just around 200 players in any given season. Now cut that number by about 98% and what your left with would be the amount of RETIRED NHLers. Now take another piece of that number away for players who don't actually come back to Southern Ontario after they're done playing. It ends up being a handful. And do these percentages stay constant when looking at the entire semi-pro network? No. They don't. Once you start digging into leagues below AHL level...the American representation spikes upward dramatically. There are obvious reasons for this. Any-Hoo...were getting separated from the central argument...which was..."Any year which Southern Ontario HOSTS Allan Cup...they will dominate because of their population base." Ya. Ummmm... The supposed mother load deposit of players you THINK your drawing from...has produced a grand total of 2 teams with anything over a respectably competitive level. And one of those 2...A prairie team eliminated. And the other one...is the one were discussing. Therefore I recommend finding a different angle to explain how the 2014 Dundas Real McCoys are the best Allan Cup team of all time after they played together...FOUR...f*cking times.
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Post by wade on May 4, 2014 11:18:55 GMT -5
And while were at it...usually when we study on these hockey demographics...one of the first equalizing factors introduced into the discussion is actual percentages (per capita) of people playing hockey.
Due to the drastically contrasted cultural compositions between Prairie life and Southern Ontario...the numbers are about 4 times higher out here, gentlemen.
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Post by mlh01 on May 4, 2014 13:10:06 GMT -5
Wade, I'll preface my reply by saying I think we both share the same passion about Senior hockey. I think we both, as most people on this board do, want Senior hockey to succeed and move into the place we all believe it should.
Do I agree with everything you say - no of course not. But I love the banter because our posts "help" in spreading interest in Senior hockey. Keep up your passion.
On that note buddy - again no disrespect but you're out to lunch. It has been this way since the 30's. Of course there are more pros drafted, playing, retired and now living in Ontario - there is such an imbalance of former players here its not funny...if you're retired and want to continue I the business/broadcasting or most careers for that matter, you would settle in Southern Ontario. just stating the facts.
As for the number of AAA teams there are more than any other province - currently 7. I do agree though that that figure should be higher.
My feeling is you will see that number grow in the next few years, especially if Hockey Canada comes on board....which is the "hope".
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Post by wade on May 4, 2014 13:39:01 GMT -5
Before I exert anymore effort at all in disputing the central point your making...show me something which even makes it relevant to thread.
Hockey Canada's presence, at the Senior level, is weak in Southern Ontario.
In that area you've got 3 consistent teams. Two of which are basically the preeminent forces in a struggling league which hasn't even been able to produce an Allan Cup representative in 3 tournaments prior to the HOST year.
And the year this branch does host...Dundas added a handful of very good players who showed up for the tournament.
Brantford maintains a roster very close to what they had the previous year...so...the luxury of being in a host branch didn't really make a difference for them. They were simply a decent team. Just like everyone else in Dundas.
Again...there probably are a lot of good players in the GTA.
But...it doesn't translate into anything remarkable by AC Championship team standards.
Nothing wrong with having to settle for simply being a champion and admitting it's not rational to even attempt to say they're the greatest team of all time.
If were going to have THAT conversation...let's first establish a evaluating criteria (good luck with that).
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