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Post by Don Robertson on Mar 4, 2015 22:44:14 GMT -5
Mr wade. McCoys beat Bentley 6-2. Brantford lost by one goal to them last year. This season the Blast are vastly improved as is Stoney and Whitby. Give me a break. Are you real saying that your team would go 23-1 in ONT as they do out there. The Not a chance in hell that happens. Puts an end to your stupid comment that the Alberta league is better. I'm gonna call BullShit on that one, bud. I don't believe ANY teams in the ACH are "vastly improved"' from last year. I'm seeing mostly the same names as last year...and these players are Mostly comparable level to what the majority of the CHL is. Let's be honest...this is all nothing more than a pissing match and I'm bored with it. The ACH Champ...whomever that might be...NEEDS to accomplish something outside of Ontario. Please...at least qualify for an Allan Cup before you start tooting the horns like this. I'm not interested in debating which of the only 2 Sr. AA A Leagues in the Nation are, the best, but I will take to task the comments about the Real McCoys being less than stellar at Allan Cups because I feel it must be noted that the OHA teams have no Sr. AA or A reams to draw players from to bolster the lineup or at least take extra players to the Cup ( we can have Jr's but that just doesn't work ) to not acknowledge that this doesn't have a huge effect on what kind of team the ACH send is just silly. With respect to getting past Kenora the ACH teams play a 24 game schedule and 2 best of 7 series to qualify to host the money pit of a Renwick Cup. The Real McCoys already have 4 players out for the season and we have only played 3 playoff games. Some Federations permitt teams to set up bogus AA teams so they have over 50 cards to sign guys to, ACH teams have no such luxury (Scam ) . So perhaps the reality of what the ACH have left to compete against Kenora and then if the ACH happen to win, they get to send what's left of a team to the Allan Cup. It seems sending a creditable team with no pick up's at all to the National Championship has little merit in these debates. Don Robertson
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Post by jimc on Mar 5, 2015 0:16:37 GMT -5
so...to recap...the CHL has only ONE quality team...the Gennies
ACH has 4 teams all capable of winning the league...last year, one of those teams THUMPED Bentley, and the other lost by a goal
so that would seem to me to indicate there are more GOOD teams in ON, than the one-horse race out west.
And please...stop with the bullshit that simply playing Bentley makes the other western teams 'better'...that is absurd.
By that logic, Dundas and Brantford playing each other 10 times, plus playoffs each year, mustmake them the 1977 Montreal Canadiens?
There is far too much hypocrisy here. Wade.
Not sure I understand the logic behind a one-horse league being better than a league where 4 out of 5 times are good enough to win it?
You can't sit thee and brag about how Bentley curbstomps every team, every night, and then honestly sit there with a straight face an try and crow about what an awesome league you play in.
so the CL is the only league with 4 'AAA' teams? Busllshit...ACH has 5 registered teams...albeit one not good enough to really count.
And I am not saying any of the teams in ACH are as good as Bentley this year...we can admit we don;t know...have to wait until Nfld to determine that.
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Post by jimc on Mar 5, 2015 0:21:53 GMT -5
As for Mr. Mole, a quick peek at his post-season stats, with a full, competent team in front of him, well, lo and behold...
3-0 2.32 .944
hmmmmm....
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Post by wade on Mar 5, 2015 0:24:30 GMT -5
The Alberta Champion plays a full regular season schedule and a MINIMUM of 2 best of 7 playoff series...and up until this year...they've also played an Inter-Branch series just days after completing Alberta playoffs. The Alberta Champion hasn't lost this McKenzie Cup series since....holy shit...2001..maybe...? Alberta has maintained this dominance despite the BC Champion ALWAYS having been the far more well rested team, Don. And the BC Champion had ALWAYS been able to add AP's from the entire Province. They brought SR AA players, they brought University players and more than once that operated double rosters under the same team name...and they never beat Alberta. Not once.
My point is...don't bother trying to use the "fatigue" excuse as to how the vaunted ACH/MLH has FAILED...multiple times...to win a 3 game series against an opponent who is usually so "well rested" because they haven't played ANY games together.
Furthermore...That Kenora team that slinks out of Ontario most of the time...hasn't been impressive in any AC's I've been to.
In fact..I did some digging... of the 5 tournament sandwiched between the last 2 which Ontario has hosted...The Ontario Rep has not had a SINGLE PLAYER in the TOP 5 in scoring of ANY of those 5 tourneys. Nor have they had the top 3 goalies in ANY of those tournaments.
Affiliates...Yes...there are a handful of "picks ups" who've been factors in this window. But...that's not what's stopping Ontario from having any success. The teams who added AP's for the tournament...had to eliminate teams with the same advantages
Truth is...affiliate players make up a small % of the total amount of players in these tournaments. Yes...in that small percentile...there are some gems. And yes...the affiliation rule is a joke and it should be eliminated. But...it's not the reason Ontario teams ended up where they did in ANY of these 5 tournaments.
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Post by jimc on Mar 5, 2015 0:31:43 GMT -5
hmmmmmm...lets go back 10 years, shall we, and see what we find. because really, beyond that, there is no contribution at the ACH level from either Bentley or the vaunted CHL.
so...each league has 2 championships in that time frame...Bentley with both, and one each for Dundas and Bfd. ON has 2 runners-up (Whitby x2) and CHL have 3...all Bentley
there is not another team form that league anywhere to be seen...and ACH is just horrible I guess, matching the success of the mighty Generals from God's gift to Sr hockey League.
just stop
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Post by The Goon on Mar 5, 2015 0:50:30 GMT -5
Hey Wade shut the hell up.
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Post by wade on Mar 5, 2015 0:57:44 GMT -5
hmmmmmm...lets go back 10 years, shall we, and see what we find. because really, beyond that, there is no contribution at the ACH level from either Bentley or the vaunted CHL. so...each league has 2 championships in that time frame...Bentley with both, and one each for Dundas and Bfd. ON has 2 runners-up (Whitby x2) and CHL have 3...all Bentley there is not another team form that league anywhere to be seen...and ACH is just horrible I guess, matching the success of the mighty Generals from God's gift to Sr hockey League. just stop Do you drink hard alcohol in the evenings, Jim? 10 years ago...doesn't have anything to do with where we are right now. 10 years ago...The MLH...as it was known at the time...WAS...a better league than the Chinook League. 10 years ago...The Chinook League was eliminated by the Horse Lake Thunder...of the North Peace Hockey League. The playing field began to level out between Ontario & Alberta not very long after that. 06 & 07 tournaments...Whitby sent impressive but nowhere near dominant teams. 08' was an Ontario Host year...I feel it was a well played/even tournament field with no one team running away with the tourney. Bentley manage to finish higher than 2 of the 3 Ontario teams...and from 09-13'...it's basically been a road through Bentley to win the whole ship. Carry on with your triple vodka.
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Post by wade on Mar 5, 2015 1:38:50 GMT -5
And since when is the ACH a deep league?
Whitby won in 07.
Since then...the same 2 teams have volleyed the title back & forth. With Dundas having an edge in total Championships. Correct?
The ACH is able to produce a synthetic version of parity through a weighted schedule & a consistent lack of enthusiasm from its top teams for regular season play...but...when playoffs roll around...a few things happen:
Dundas loads up. Taking full use of the 28 man roster...they try to vastly improve their team. Knowing whatever they've done in the regular season is only artificial success.
Brantford tries to do same...but...they're not as good at it as Dundas.
These teams playoff in what is...essentially...the championship.
And all the while....most top players are in the 33-40 year old range. With the exception of Jooris. HaHa.
I guess...where this discussion has taken me...is the acknowledgement that neither the CHL or the ACH are AS STRONG as they were a few years ago.
IMO...The Chinook League was at its best...2007-2010. The League has been undergoing some transformation since then. Bentley is still the same powerhouse...but...with different top rivals, now.
Okotoks & Innisfail are the incoming challengers. I thought we would get a full 7 game series in the 2013 Finals...but...Bentley took it in a sweep. Which was fun. Not sure if it didn't hurt them in the AC though. Could've used the extra push, IMO.
This year? I know it doesn't appear likely on paper...but...I'm careful what I wish for when I say I hope we DO see a close(r) Finals.
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Post by naitch2727 on Mar 5, 2015 9:02:34 GMT -5
The Allan Cup should be contested by Amateurs, not players that have played Pro-Hockey, Minor-Pro or in Europe. The true origin of the Allan Cup should be revisited, a cup that was donated for amateur teams to vie for...Not semi-professional teams. Eligible teams should be only those that DO Not have any current or former Pro or Minor-Pro or European experience. This would give the Allan Cup back to those smaller towns who then would be able to assemble teams, which would generate more interest across the country. No All-Star Teams need apply. Last but not least, lets get the Best in the West to play the Best in the East for the Allan Cup.
Ya...great idea-if you want less fans in the seats than what there currently is. I wouldn't even watch or have a hint of interest in Senior Hockey if it was "beer league amateurs". Would be better off watching a good AAA midget game.
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Post by naitch2727 on Mar 5, 2015 9:11:53 GMT -5
Mr wade. McCoys beat Bentley 6-2. Brantford lost by one goal to them last year. This season the Blast are vastly improved as is Stoney and Whitby. Give me a break. Are you real saying that your team would go 23-1 in ONT as they do out there. The Not a chance in hell that happens. Puts an end to your stupid comment that the Alberta league is better. Blast are NOT vastly improved from last season. About the same or maybe a slight dip.
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Post by Goodolehockey on Mar 5, 2015 11:50:45 GMT -5
The Allan Cup is not all that it is hyped up to be as it stands and the average fan does not know most of the (superstar) players!!!
The average "beer league amateurs" outnumber the superstars and are the force behind what senior hockey is all about. Go watch a game in any small town and people are out in full force cheering their boys on...Most of the players now have played junior and university level hockey with the odd washed up minor-pro in the fold. Without the "beer league amateurs" there would be no senior hockey as we know.
The Allan Cup is just one over-hyped event for the so-called "amateur beer league superstars"!!!
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Post by wade on Mar 5, 2015 15:27:47 GMT -5
I'll buy in while the stock is still low on this one...
First of all...Lower tiered SR hockey...anywhere in Canada...is NOT thriving. Not at all. Just like SR AAA teams...SR AA/A/B & Intermediate level clubs operate most seasons at a financial loss. Attendances vary all over the map...but...mostly...these are empty rinks.
Secondly, there are still numerous lower tiered SR teams drawing players from outside local areas. More & more leagues are implementing league specific import rules to control these things from happening...but...as they draw up more rules...I know it hasn't stopped the steady decline of total teams in Canada.
Basically...it's very difficult to sustain a small town team. They run smaller budgets that SR AAA teams...but...they're still vulnerable.
I can half-agree with the accusation of the AC being an "over-hyped event". Personally, I think it's a bit ambiguous to be promoting it as a "National Championship" these days. Really...it's a tournament featuring some pretty good teams...some of which haven't played any sort of organized schedule and some others are merely in the tournament because someone invited them. It's sad. And your right...it's overhyped...for those reason.
However...The average SR AAA player is not promoted as a "superstar player". Individual players are not the selling feature of this brand. They don't charge you any extra $$$ at the door...because a "SuperStar" is in the lineup. In fact...SR AAA admission prices run about the same as any other level of Senior Hockey...even though...it cost much more to operate these teams...and...all the SR AAA teams of note...are SUPERIOR to any given lower tiered Senior team.
That's one of the key things I think these AC teams can be given credit for. They do manage to produce a quality roster which can easily be distinguished from any random small town team.
And lastly...let's keep in mind...their are 3 things stopping someone from pursuing an Allan Cup:
1) $1000 fee 2) Fear 3) Common sense
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Post by Goodolehockey on Mar 5, 2015 15:44:08 GMT -5
Wade, I have seen the AAA brand and it is a treat to have a team in it, as the hockey is a high level one... However, for the most part the level of hockey in the Senior A level is a good caliber as most teams prefer that and it tends to be more of a small town family type event, which is just what brings it closer to "home". There tends to be a lot of support for senior hockey if friends and family know the players in most small towns...
Having seen the Senior AAA hockey, it tends to allow more high end quality players in at the expense of some players who may have to sit, due to a numbers game.
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Post by wade on Mar 5, 2015 15:56:52 GMT -5
I'm curious to know whereabouts in Canada your seeing this happen?
Most of "small town Canada"...to my knowledge...is dying.
There is not enough rural infrastructure and no feasible way to improve it and there aren't many good jobs available in small towns, either.
People...including hockey players...are moving to bigger centres.
I know this all too well because for the past year I've been toying with the idea of buying a new home...and in my heart...I desperately would love to raise my Son in Bentley. The place where I was raised...but...my head says that's not the move to make and most of the people I consult/discuss with tend to agree.
And it all ties in with my opinion on "small town hockey". It's awesome...don't get me wrong...but...if the Allan Cup is gonna survive...it can't be getting tied to an even smaller/less growth situation than it already is.
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Post by Goodolehockey on Mar 5, 2015 16:20:45 GMT -5
Go on the Saskatchewan Hockey League site, there are 15 senior hockey leagues currently operating within a province that has just over 1 million people...Somehow the small towns are making it work, as there are no senior teams within the bigger centres. You can go to most towns on any given cold Saskatchewan nite and are bound to see some type of senior action.
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