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Post by wade on Mar 5, 2015 16:48:35 GMT -5
Yes, I suspected you were in Saskatchewan.
It's a different mentality out there than it is anywhere else.
BC & Alberta combined don't have as many SR leagues as Saskatchewan...but...Saskatchewan runs 5 tiers of SR and they tier these teams the same way minor hockey does. There is something for every team to win, there is someone for every team to play And there's also somewhere for everybody to play.
We simply do not have enough towns & villages with the people & facilities to do this in Alberta. It's been over 20 years since Alberta had SR C or D Provincials. It was fun. I remember it well. And I remember why it ended, too.
There are simply not enough players to run "local talent" on the ice in every single small town here. Like I said before...small town people have moved to bigger centres. It's way beyond hockey related. And it's not coming back.
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Post by naitch2727 on Mar 5, 2015 16:54:31 GMT -5
Goodolehockey...when you state "15 senior hockey league" do you include men's leagues in that #? In my head, Senior and a men's league are 2 totally different things. An A,B,C,D level men's team playing in a league is not Senior hockey. However, when looking at things here in Ontario...I like to reference the outlaw WOAA league. Been to a handful of games and seen some of the action. I think a few of the men's teams I have played on could walk in and beat many of those teams...no bullshit.
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Post by Goodolehockey on Mar 5, 2015 16:58:35 GMT -5
Yes, the smaller farming communities have died out as the younger generations have moved away for further schooling and work. The larger rural towns have continued to hold sway and this is where the hockey has held steadfast.
Ironically, the players from the bigger urban centres are sprinkled all over these senior teams throughout the province... How is that for going against the grain!!!
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Post by Goodoleey on Mar 5, 2015 17:19:28 GMT -5
Goodolehockey...when you state "15 senior hockey league" do you include men's leagues in that #? In my head, Senior and a men's league are 2 totally different things. An A,B,C,D level men's team playing in a league is not Senior hockey. However, when looking at things here in Ontario...I like to reference the outlaw WOAA league. Been to a handful of games and seen some of the action. I think a few of the men's teams I have played on could walk in and beat many of those teams...no bullshit. The senior leagues are comprised of players that have graduated from either Junior Hockey, University or former Pro/Minor Pro and European Hockey Leagues.
The teams that want to pursue Provincial Titles beyond their leagues are classified based on the populations of the towns, so a smaller center that might play in the "C" Division might play in the same league with a team that might be put in an "A" Division.
That is what makes the Provincials fun to watch, as teams compete year to year, not knowing who they might face until the Draws are finalized.
For example one town that plays in the "A" Division now, previously played "B" and "C" in the past... No Bullshit!!!
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Post by mlh01 on Mar 5, 2015 19:25:11 GMT -5
Goodoleey. That format sounds great. I have occasionally gone onto the Sask Senior sites. Looks like Senior hockey is doing well. What are the crowds like?
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Post by mlh01 on Mar 5, 2015 19:47:50 GMT -5
Also should have added that Ontario has a very similar league. Unfortunately it's an "outlaw" league, not affiliated with Hockey Canada.
The hockey is decent and it is spread out all across Southwestern Ontario. Former Allan Cup participant towns like Petrolia and Tillsonburg now play in the WOAA.
They even split into levels similar to what you mention in Sask. They have a top level classified as AA playoff and a round robin A playoff. I believe they will crown two champions.
Here is where the problem arises. These teams can in no way compete with the AAA teams in Southern Ont. Their crowds and budgets are tiny in comparison. So even if accredited they could not compete for an ONT Robertson Cup.
You mention it would be great to have true amateurs playing for the Allan Cup. The reality is that none of the 14 teams in the outlaw league could ever dream of scrounging up enough money to travel all over the province or host the Renwick Cup (Ontario Senior Championship).
If it all plays out as it looks right now, Dundas will play either SC or Brantford. And the winner host Kenora. Whoever hosts WILL likely lose money.
Then they go to the Allan Cup and will lose even more money. You need a great owner, great executive and lots of fans, sponsors, etc to even hope to come close to not losing a fistful each year.
There is only one way to solve all of this - Hockey Canada needs to step up financially. They made $15+ Million on a few of the World Juniors held in Canada recently. If they even allocated just one half Million to AAA Senior hockey yearly to help pay for playoff and Allan Cup costs, there would likely be many more teams.
Then they could also put a similar amount towards Senior AA and A.
This way larger communities in AAA centres, like Brantford, can have a championship as can the smaller communities, like say Tavistock from the WOAA, and would be financially able to compete for a true national championship.
It unfortunately has ALL come down to $$$$. And little support for Senior hockey from the top level of hockey in Canada.
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Post by wade on Mar 5, 2015 20:03:56 GMT -5
These are the teams where Rosetown draws their affiliate pool from.
It's the same for SEPT and the 3-4 good leagues in Manitoba.
There are also plenty of scenarios over the years where a good, solid "small town SR club" caught some wind and ended up going for an Allan Cup...or three. Balgonie, Weyburn, Ministikwin, Shellbrook...actually...most of the SK Allan Cup entrants over the years...Unity, Rosetown...you get the picture.
What Sask REALLY needs...is a "AAA" league featuring teams from higher achieving centres like Saskatoon, Regina, Moose Jaw...and ...Humboldt....haha.
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Post by Goodolehockey on Mar 5, 2015 20:13:33 GMT -5
There was a typo, apologize for that.
The arenas are packed, but there are usually consistent supporters, usually not much happening in small towns on cold winter nights... The crowd size varies and people from all walks of life can be seen from seniors to school aged kids, local professionals and farmers etc.
I agree it might be a pipe dream, due to many obstacles and what not, but it sure looks like the current format is not working (all the many forums can attest to that), perhaps there is a way for the another level of competition that is more affordable that is not necessarily competition to the Allan Cup, but one that is more conducive to allowing others levels to compete against other comparable teams across this great land.
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Post by Goodolehockey on Mar 5, 2015 20:22:32 GMT -5
Wade, there has been the odd senior team from the larger centres, but for whatever reason it does not last. Certainly the larger centres would be excellent sites for a AAA League, as the larger populations could turn a good gate, more potential sponsors and more employment opportunities for players other than the local car dealerships.
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Post by wade on Mar 5, 2015 20:45:57 GMT -5
Correct.
Saskatoon had 2 'AAA' operating at the same time...albeit briefly. They failed to generate any buzz. I think it's really important for SR AAA enterprisers to start with a strong team.
Quite often...we hear of new teams enlisting around Canada and they mistakenly attempt to float through a year or two with a weak roster.
It's better for everyone if/when a team pulls together no fewer than 10 truly elite players capable of doing some damage against established teams. People come into this thinking fans & sponsors will keep them alive until better players come along and that's a deadly error.
The reality is...no matter how good a SR AAA team is...they can't count on big gates.
Might as well have a great team & lose your ass while accomplishing something special because your losing your ass no matter what these days.
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Post by jimc on Mar 5, 2015 23:13:08 GMT -5
hmmmmmm...lets go back 10 years, shall we, and see what we find. because really, beyond that, there is no contribution at the ACH level from either Bentley or the vaunted CHL. so...each league has 2 championships in that time frame...Bentley with both, and one each for Dundas and Bfd. ON has 2 runners-up (Whitby x2) and CHL have 3...all Bentley there is not another team form that league anywhere to be seen...and ACH is just horrible I guess, matching the success of the mighty Generals from God's gift to Sr hockey League. just stop Do you drink hard alcohol in the evenings, Jim? 10 years ago...doesn't have anything to do with where we are right now. 10 years ago...The MLH...as it was known at the time...WAS...a better league than the Chinook League. 10 years ago...The Chinook League was eliminated by the Horse Lake Thunder...of the North Peace Hockey League. The playing field began to level out between Ontario & Alberta not very long after that. 06 & 07 tournaments...Whitby sent impressive but nowhere near dominant teams. 08' was an Ontario Host year...I feel it was a well played/even tournament field with no one team running away with the tourney. Bentley manage to finish higher than 2 of the 3 Ontario teams...and from 09-13'...it's basically been a road through Bentley to win the whole ship. Carry on with your triple vodka. Apparently reading comprehension is tough for you oil rig boys. You are the one blathering on about how awesome your league is...well, over the last 10 years, history dictates it is no better than ACH...that was and is, the point everyone here is trying to make,,,and really, CHL is a one-team league...ACH has had 3 teams in recent history good enough to represent and make a solid showing at the AC... You were ragging on the ACH as a league, when the facts bear out it is likely more competitive (and hence better) than the league where your precious Gennies currently reside. No knock on your team, they are all class and a great example of how to run a Sr. AAA club...but you went off the reservation with your attempts to comparing one league as superior to the other, when NO facts exist to bear that out...in fact, the opposite is actually true. it is not about 10 years ago, dummy...and you know that...it is about what has transpired OVER the past decade. And stop with the tired canard about host teams...Hot teams win every where...including Red Deer.... Now, where is my Stoli???
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Post by jimc on Mar 5, 2015 23:20:40 GMT -5
The WOAA teams are banned from competing for the AC, as the OHA has a back-door deal with ACH and Hockey Canada whereby no ON teams can compete for the AC without first being accepted into ACH.
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Post by wade on Mar 6, 2015 0:10:11 GMT -5
Jimmy, I know it's getting late...so...your surely 3/4's cut by now...but...
I stand by my opinion.
As I've been known to do over the last decade...I run a hockey background check and almost every regular roster player in every nook & cranny of the Allan Cup map. Sickeningly...I do it every year.
And from that research...I'm seeing comparable rosters between the ACH & CHL.
When you take into account the fact a lot of the guys in Alberta...and if your willing to accept the assertion these younger guys are generally in better shape...compared to mostly older/further removed guys in the ACH...all your left with is experience and while a couple teams in the ACH have well travelled soldiers...it's not enough for me to say the ACH is the better league.
I'm just not seeing weakness on rosters from the likes of Stony or Fort (the 2 lowest ranking teams here) currently
Those teams are...not unlike ACH teams...built around former pros & Major JR & collegiate players.
And...Those teams have both proven they can actually get to AC's or at least beat AC level teams.
Like I said before...the only team to beat a full Gens roster in 2013...was Fort Sask.
They're better than you think...when you base it all on the Gens ridiculous record out here.
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Post by wade on Mar 6, 2015 12:06:06 GMT -5
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Post by wade on Mar 6, 2015 12:08:56 GMT -5
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